Israeli-palestinian Conflict

[Ice_nine]

Anyone have any thoughts on the latest violence in Gaza? Or should we all continue with condom threads?

 

It's hard to tease the facts from propaganda in the cluster that is Palestine vs Israel, but it seems the poorer and more impoverished people tend to lose in these things, and most of them are Palestinians.

 

Also as a Christian I'm disturbed by the unwavering support  religious conservatives give to Israel, especially those based on dubious end-times prophesying.

 

I didn't want to make a blog post, but I'm curious if any PMers have any thoughts concerning the topic. I've been particularly taken by the turmoil in that part of the world and have been attempting to study it so, just throwing it out there for discussion.

 

ETA: I found this letter by Kind Abdullah of Transjordan in 1947, the year prior to Israeli independence which I think is insightful and makes a lot of good points.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Ice_nine

[Ice_nine]

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html (the link I forgot to post in the edit whoops)

[beatitude]

I live in Palestine for much of the year. As you may have seen from my prayer request in the Prayer Room yesterday, one of my best friends lost her two little cousins (aged seven and four) to Israeli tank shelling. She herself is pregnant and she's frantic. Her family have had to flee their house. Hospitals are at zero stock for numerous urgent medicines (139 essential drugs were on the zero stock list, at last count), power cuts are getting worse due to the bombing of the generators (and bear in mind that Gaza experiences lengthy electricity cuts every single day anyway), and last night in the blackout the water (95% unfit for drinking) ran out too. I am so worried for all my friends in Gaza and for this reason I am very, very reluctant to participate in any debates, because there seem to be so many people who sit in their nice safe computer chairs in the US and are all gung-ho for Israel and who just blindly accept that all this is necessary and good, and who sanctimoniously say things like, "If only Hamas didn't use people as human shields, this wouldn't happen." That's rubbish. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth and people live packed together like sardines. They have literally nowhere to run. (On a related note, a friend got a scholarship to study in Australia and the Australian government had to personally intervene before the Israeli authorities would let her out to take up her place at university. She was two months late for the start of her course.) There are no shelters to withstand F16 fire, nowhere to go. My friend's cousins Qasem and Emad were playing in their bedroom when a tank shell crashed into it and killed them. I'm in no mood to argue with people who want to suggest that somehow it was the fault of Qasem and Emad's family that they died, implying that they must be rocketeers; or to say that it was all a big mistake and 'these things happen in a war'. Oops. I've heard it all and I've had enough.

 

I do a lot of work with children who have disabilities and additional mental health problems in the West Bank, including kids who have been in military custody - often without charge. (Under the military law that Palestinians live under, it's possible to detain people indefinitely without a charge or a trial.) When there is a charge, it's usually throwing. stones at soldiers. There was one incident when they arrested a seven-year-old for that and an Israeli lawyer from a human rights and solidarity organisation, Lea Tsemel, came to see him. The soldiers denied her access, and when she tried to push her way past them she was arrested herself. These arrests usually happen in the middle of the night, to generate maximum fear. I know so many cases like that - kids who were pulled out of their beds and made to be human shields for Israeli army house searches, twelve-year-olds who were in solitary confinement and made to sign confessions in a language they can't even read (no idea what they were signing! At all), and teenagers who have been tortured in custody. Then there are the home demolitions. Recently some very dear friends of mine, Christian Palestinians who operate a peace and reconciliation program, had their orchards torn up. The loving work of ten years and part of their livelihood, gone in a morning. They are fighting a constant battle against confiscation of their land to expand the nearby settlements. Their family has been farming that land since Ottoman times but now they're not allowed to build any permanent structures on it or to connect to the electricity grid. Their lives are a slow hell and it's amazing to me how they remain as kind and loving and as committed to the Gospel as they are. They have stuck a big sign outside their gate, in Arabic, English, Hebrew, and Yiddish: "We refuse to be enemies."

 

This is just a small sample of what can be seen from day to day. It predates Hamas by decades. Today one of my friends in Gaza wrote, "No justice, no peace." I hope people overseas are becoming more aware of what exactly life is like under military law, and the end-times 'prophesying' that you mention is a pet hate of mine - people seem to prioritise this prophecy over human lives. I will never forget the face of a very old man as his house was ripped down by a bulldozer. He was expelled from his original home in 1948, when Israel was established; and now he can't have his second home too. We are somehow supposed to give thanks and rejoice and not lift a finger to help him, because apparently the Bible says this is how it should be? Knowing children who are very traumatised (one little girl has gone through so many home demolitions that she has become frightened of the colour yellow - bulldozer colour), whenever I hear the argument that the Bible obligates us to give unstinting support to Israeli nationalism I think of Jesus saying, "Whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble..."

 

Please pray for everyone in this situation.

Edited July 20, 2014 by beatitude

[reyb]

Can’t they lived (Jews and Palestines) wherever they are now? 

[Lilllabettt]

the problem is intractable because it was co-opted by leadership in the Arab world as a useful propaganda tool. Feigning concern for Palestine, meanwhile closing their borders to refugees.They mixed the crisis with an ideology about the destruction of the Jews. So they have wronged Palestine twice. because those who seek the destruction of the Jews find death instead.  

 

And that has come to pass.

 

one example: Israel has very limited international support apart from the US and Germany. US foreign policy was deeply ambivalent towards Israel many years after Israeli independence. What changed? Their position hardened only after the US political establishment bought into the narrative the Arab leadership was selling. Now everything the US does re:Israel/Palestine has an undertone --that nagging feeling that if they let Palestine "win" they will be setting up another holocaust. I assume its not necessary to discuss what effect this has on the Israelis relationship with Germany. 

 

 

 

 

[ChristianGirlForever]

I would suggest people read From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters. It talks about how it all started.

For now, we just need to pray for the safety and protection of innocents on both sides.

Edited July 20, 2014 by ChristianGirlForever

[Ice_nine]

the problem is intractable because it was co-opted by leadership in the Arab world as a useful propaganda tool. Feigning concern for Palestine, meanwhile closing their borders to refugees.They mixed the crisis with an ideology about the destruction of the Jews. So they have wronged Palestine twice. because those who seek the destruction of the Jews find death instead.  

 

And that has come to pass.

 

one example: Israel has very limited international support apart from the US and Germany. US foreign policy was deeply ambivalent towards Israel many years after Israeli independence. What changed? Their position hardened only after the US political establishment bought into the narrative the Arab leadership was selling. Now everything the US does re:Israel/Palestine has an undertone --that nagging feeling that if they let Palestine "win" they will be setting up another holocaust. I assume its not necessary to discuss what effect this has on the Israelis relationship with Germany. 

 

So in order to avoid holocaust 2.0 you (not you, just generally speaking) support a state that essentially imprisons a race of people, and kills them without any repercussions? Makes sense.

[ChristianGirlForever]

So in order to avoid holocaust 2.0 you (not you, just generally speaking) support a state that essentially imprisons a race of people, and kills them without any repercussions? Makes sense.

Wow, words fail me. Where do you get your sources from? This is so biased, I don't even know what to say.

[beatitude]

I would suggest people read From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters. It talks about how it all started.

For now, we just need to pray for the safety and protection of innocents on both sides.

 

This book has been discredited. It is widely regarded in academic circles as a fraud and you could never cite it in a serious historical study. It's not just a question of having a political disagreement with the author; the book itself is just that bad. The problems with it are well-documented.

[ChristianGirlForever]

[quote name="Lilllabettt" post="2688198" timestamp="1405873903"]the problem is intractable because it was co-opted by leadership in the Arab world as a useful propaganda tool. Feigning concern for Palestine, meanwhile closing their borders to refugees.They mixed the crisis with an ideology about the destruction of the Jews. So they have wronged Palestine twice. because those who seek the destruction of the Jews find death instead.  
 
I totally agree, Lillabett, this was started years ago. The Arabs cut off their noses to spite their faces.

Beatitude, would you mind giving me credible references to back your assertion that Mrs. Peters' book was widely discredited. By the way, the sentiments Lillabett posted were in Peters' book.

[Amppax]

This book has been discredited. It is widely regarded in academic circles as a fraud and you could never cite it in a serious historical study. It's not just a question of having a political disagreement with the author; the book itself is just that bad. The problems with it are well-documented.

 

Care to provide some examples? Not that I think you're wrong, I just tend to have a problem when people throw allegations like this out there without any sort of citation. 

 

Also, I'm very much Pro-Palestine in this whole debate, but I've recently had conversations with a professor of mine who is what can only be described as a Zionist. He is a convert to Catholicism, and spent some time involved with Messianic Jewish groups. Although I think he's mistaken in a lot of ways (I'm particularly approaching the situation from a theological standpoint) I do think he's very thoughtful and raises some good points. Here's his website: http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/en/home. Just throwing something out for consideration and discussion. 

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name="Lilllabettt" post="2688198" timestamp="1405873903"]the problem is intractable because it was co-opted by leadership in the Arab world as a useful propaganda tool. Feigning concern for Palestine, meanwhile closing their borders to refugees.They mixed the crisis with an ideology about the destruction of the Jews. So they have wronged Palestine twice. because those who seek the destruction of the Jews find death instead.  
 
I totally agree, Lillabett, this was started years ago. The Arabs cut off their noses to spite their faces.

Beatitude, would you mind giving me credible references to back your assertion that Mrs. Peters' book was widely discredited. By the way, the sentiments Lillabett posted were in Peters' book.

 

 

Except I don't believe the Arabs cut off their nose to spite their faces. They got what they wanted. The people who had to pay the price for being co-opted by the pan-Arabists were the Palestinians. I guess they are responsible to the extent that they collaborated. 

 

"From Time Immemorial" is on the hooey pile. Not to say she doesn't have some interesting ideas in there but it would be generous to say she's sloppy. If you cite her work in defense of your argument you just embarrass yourself.  

[beatitude]

Care to provide some examples? Not that I think you're wrong, I just tend to have a problem when people throw allegations like this out there without any sort of citation. 

 

Also, I'm very much Pro-Palestine in this whole debate, but I've recently had conversations with a professor of mine who is what can only be described as a Zionist. He is a convert to Catholicism, and spent some time involved with Messianic Jewish groups. Although I think he's mistaken in a lot of ways (I'm particularly approaching the situation from a theological standpoint) I do think he's very thoughtful and raises some good points. Here's his website: http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/en/home. Just throwing something out for consideration and discussion. 

 

From Time Immemorial was very publicly dismantled. Norman Finkelstein did the initial research on it (his book Image and Reality in the Israeli Palestinian Conflict quite meticulously documents the falsified quotations and demographic calculations), but it also received negative reviews from Israeli historians such as Yehoshua Porath. Porath also noted, "In Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon." The book's popular appeal was centred mainly in the US, in non-academic circles - which goes back to the question Ice nine raised, that of unstinting support for territorial nationalism in certain quarters. In Europe it was disparaged by reviewers pretty much as soon as it came out - the Times Literary Supplement took it apart. It is worth noting that Peters' book was never peer-reviewed by an academic journal, and even people who actually agree with her politically - Daniel Pipes, for example - cautioned the readership that she was not a historian, used sloppy methods, and was overly partisan.

 

(A note on my own qualifications: I am doing my doctoral research with Palestinian and Israeli Jewish children of different communities, looking at how they approach and digest histories that are considered taboo in their community. My MA was in Jewish Studies and I looked at contemporary religious Jewish engagements with Palestinian experiences of displacement, so I am pretty well-read in this field on an academic level as well as having lived and worked in the region.)

 

I am uncomfortable with descriptors like 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine'. It's not a football match. I have many Israeli friends who are working for justice for Palestinians, often at some personal cost. People can't and shouldn't be split neatly into two equal opposing camps on the basis of ethnicity or nationality. Looking at your friend's website, I think he has this football match mentality. No matter what your political views are, I would be very suspicious of the idea that we as Catholics should owe de facto allegiance to a particular government by virtue of our faith. This is shackling our consciences. Governments can do awful things (and they do!). I also dislike the way he seems to conflate Israel with Jews. What about my Israeli Jewish friends who testify with Breaking the Silence (and organisation of ex-conscript soldiers speaking against abuses they either witnessed or perpetrated)? They would not view him as being particularly helpful to them or their country by backing it in everything it does - but they are Jewish too, and Breaking the Silence was founded by a religious Jew who felt he had a spiritual duty to start speaking up about the things he had participated in as a soldier. So when Christian Zionists talk about 'fidelity to the Jewish people', who and what do they mean? The ex-soldiers who stand up and say, "This is wrong, we shouldn't have done this" or the government that sent them to do it? The Israeli state is not the automatic arbiter of everything Jewish; it's not that simple.

 

Whenever I see this kind of religious nationalism, I remind myself of Jesus' teachings on the children, the prisoners who await visitors, the naked, the hungry, 'the least of these'. Especially the children, perhaps because I work with children. I will not practically venerate a flag and be unwaveringly loyal to any state. Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven belongs to the little ones. He gave no other directions on real estate. If you attend to the needs of the most vulnerable, then we can't go far wrong. I know this because I have worked with both Palestinian and Israeli kids, many of them with profound disabilities - and their needs are almost exactly the same! What is in the interest of one is in the interest of the other. Looking at them I am reminded of what Mother Teresa said: "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other." Religiously-sanctioned ethnic nationalism will not help us to remember. Theologically and ethically I don't see how it can work. As St Paul tells us, we have no abiding city, we look for the one that is to come.

Edited July 20, 2014 by beatitude

[ChristianGirlForever]

If you cite her work in defense of your argument you just embarrass yourself.

Wow, that was really charitable. You're a Christian; just because you disagree with someone, doesn't mean you should put them down. Edited July 20, 2014 by ChristianGirlForever

[Lilllabettt]

So in order to avoid holocaust 2.0 you (not you, just generally speaking) support a state that essentially imprisons a race of people, and kills them without any repercussions? Makes sense.

 

 

well.

 

Thanks to the co-opting, Americans do not see Palestinians as the underdog. They associate them with a vast trans-national movement which has as one of its goals the destruction of the Jews.  If you buy into that narrative, Palestinians represent the Arab bullies. Israel is the underdog - a small speck of English-speaking blue-jean-wearing democracy adrift in a totalitarian, anti-Semitic sea. 

 

 And of course over time the consequences of this association have only gotten worse. After all, this is the same movement which sent Mohamed Atta to demolish the Twin Towers. Basically guaranteeing that Americans will get a wave of nausea whenever they think about making Israel negotiate with Palestine.

 

So that turned out nicely.  :| 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Lilllabettt