Why Does The Church Oppose Magic And What Counts As Magic?

[Socrates]

 Sad but sometimes Catholics turn to the spiritually advanced in other religions, perhaps because we lack them in our own?

 

 

With all due respect, that is complete nonsense.

 

There are countless saints who were/are very "spiritually advanced," (or, rather, filled with the Grace of God), including many great mystics.

People may choose to ignore them, or be ignorant of them, but that's not the fault of the saints, nor of the Catholic Faith.

 

There is no good in other religions which is not already found in its perfection in Christ's Church.

 

(I'm also not sure exactly what you mean by "spiritually advanced."  Remember, not all spirits are followers of God.)

[truthfinder]

Merton has absolutely been criticized whenhe started writing about zen meditation.  Many will not read his works at all, and many more will only read his early work. 

[Seven77]

Just in case someone needed clarification, we are not talking about magic tricks, etc. St. John Bosco pray for us!

[Kia ora]

Ah, I think you hit on something by accident here. It is quite possible that such rituals, tapping somehow into a primordial facet of the human experience, are indeed naturally effective at showing some spiritual benefit. But inasmuch as they are properly natural, they cannot in themselves be salvific. They cannot in themselves bring a man to the Faith. They cannot in themselves confer grace.

Faith, grace, salvation, are supernatural. That is why pagan rituals are in vain, and false religions 'worship' ineffectively. At best they can more or less correspond with the natural human desire for God. What they can never do is in any way correspond with the supernatural. To do so would be for them to do nothing less than accept the Truth of the Catholic Church.

 

i agree that faith, grace and salvation are supernatural, in that they are from god. but why do you think that god only grants us faith, grace and salvation in christianity? i see faith, grace and salvation in non-christians. some of the most christ-like people i know are not christians. actually think about that. LIKE christ. i don't mean that casually. i mean actually LIKE christ. that blows my mind. i'm less like christ than these people, even though i believe all the orthodox creeds and all the right stuff.

 

if that is the case that god does not abandon them, but even lifts them up, i don't see why he doesn't do so also through their religion. put simply i'm a follower of christ and with god's help i always will be, but i don't think god damns the billions of others because of their religion and what's more, if you don't find *some* glimmer of god in another person's religion, then i don't think you're looking hard enough.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kia ora

[Nihil Obstat]

As Catholics we believe that all salvation comes through the Church. That is a non-negotiable. To offer that another religion can be salvific is to essentially ignore Christ's entrusting of His authority on earth to St. Peter and the apostles.

Another religion cannot be salvific, but on a natural level there are people who can come to a sort of natural wisdom in their false religions. But that is as far as they go. If we believe that Christ established the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world, then we must also believe in the positive mandate to bring people to the Church. The Catholic Church, being the one established the Christ, is the only true religion, the only religion that truly unites Man to the supernatural, that is, to God. If Buddhism or Hinduism or Mormonism are salvific, we are denying Christ's own words and actions.

Only the Catholic Church offers true worship to God, in accordance with Christ's command. Grace flows into the world through the Church. It is offered to all mankind, yes even those who practice false religions, but any way in which they might cooperate with that grace happens in spite of their practice of a false religion, and leads them inexorably away from their errors to the Truth of the Faith.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Just in case someone needed clarification, we are not talking about magic tricks, etc. St. John Bosco pray for us!

Thank you for pointing this out. This definitely needs our prayers. It's dangerous stuff!

[ChristianGirlForever]

By the way, I heard about a conference for Catholic priests in Chicago last week regarding exorcisms.  They learned that one of the causes of a person needing an exorcism was getting involved, or even dabbling in the occult.  So, definitely not harmless at all.  :hmmm:  :pray:

[Ash Wednesday]

I'm reading some of the stuff in this thread, and I'm all like

 

[mortify ii]

It's not that the Catholic Church lacks anything but rather that certain things have become latent due to our own spiritual decadence. Sometimes hierarchs fear anything esoteric or spiritual as seeming to bypass the Sacraments and their own authority. 

Edited July 20, 2014 by mortify ii

[Kia ora]

As Catholics we believe that all salvation comes through the Church. That is a non-negotiable. To offer that another religion can be salvific is to essentially ignore Christ's entrusting of His authority on earth to St. Peter and the apostles.

Another religion cannot be salvific, but on a natural level there are people who can come to a sort of natural wisdom in their false religions. But that is as far as they go. If we believe that Christ established the Catholic Church for the salvation of the world, then we must also believe in the positive mandate to bring people to the Church. The Catholic Church, being the one established the Christ, is the only true religion, the only religion that truly unites Man to the supernatural, that is, to God. If Buddhism or Hinduism or Mormonism are salvific, we are denying Christ's own words and actions.

Only the Catholic Church offers true worship to God, in accordance with Christ's command. Grace flows into the world through the Church. It is offered to all mankind, yes even those who practice false religions, but any way in which they might cooperate with that grace happens in spite of their practice of a false religion, and leads them inexorably away from their errors to the Truth of the Faith.

 

hm well. i guess this is why i'm not a catholic. i believe all salvation comes from christ and the church is the msytical body of christ. i however don't identify the catholic church as that body of christ, or indeed any particular one church as that body. i don't think other religions can be salvific. i think jesus is the only one who can save us. but i'd like to make another topic about this, as it's kinda off topic already.

 

i don't believe christ can only be found in christianity. i do believe that non-christians can come to christ, not because their religions are salvific, but because their religions may lead them - as christianity may also lead christians - to christ.

 

the way i understand salvation is here in matt 25 31-46:

 

 

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

 

 

 

consequently i believe even atheists can be saved. i've met some atheists who are more christ like than christians and i have hope that they will find rest in christ. to be christ like is to be like jesus, kenotically emptying himself out in love for the other person. truly that's what is being talked about in matthew.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Kia ora

[mortify ii]

hm well. i guess this is why i'm not a catholic. i believe all salvation comes from christ and the church is the msytical body of christ. i however don't identify the catholic church as that body of christ, or indeed any particular one church as that body. i don't think other religions can be salvific. i think jesus is the only one who can save us. but i'd like to make another topic about this, as it's kinda off topic already.

 

Pretty consistent with Vatican II and the New Theology

[Basilisa Marie]

hm well. i guess this is why i'm not a catholic. i believe all salvation comes from christ and the church is the msytical body of christ. i however don't identify the catholic church as that body of christ, or indeed any particular one church as that body. i don't think other religions can be salvific. i think jesus is the only one who can save us. but i'd like to make another topic about this, as it's kinda off topic already.

 

i don't believe christ can only be found in christianity. i do believe that non-christians can come to christ, not because their religions are salvific, but because their religions may lead them - as christianity may also lead christians - to christ.

 

the way i understand salvation is here in matt 25 31-46:

 

 

consequently i believe even atheists can be saved. i've met some atheists who are more christ like than christians and i have hope that they will find rest in christ. to be christ like is to be like jesus, kenotically emptying himself out in love for the other person. truly that's what is being talked about in matthew.

 

We understand the fact that salvation comes from Christ to be something a like a scientific fact - on par with believing in the existence of gravity or that force equals mass times acceleration. It's just the way the world works. We believe that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ, contains the fullness of divine revelation, etc. But I think it's important to point out that we believe the Body of Christ isn't just the card-carrying practicing Catholics. We believed that you enter into the Body of Christ when you're baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I think it's an important distinction. It's also why some converts aren't re-baptized, just confirmed. 

In some ways, you're right - Catholics can believe that because salvation comes from Christ alone, and in so far as other religions are similar to Christianity, it's theoretically possible that God can use those religions to bring people to him. Again, it's not those religions that are salvific, but Christ and the Church. But the reason why that is even possible is because of Christ and that the Church exists. Karl Rahner talks about the idea of "anonymous Christians" - people who aren't Christians but are using their reason and conscience and honestly seeking the truth, some of whom can be saved, and that salvation does come from Christ. His ideas sound similar to what you might be getting at. The danger with it is to make sure we aren't supposing that the Church isn't necessary, or that all religions are equally good, or even that all Christian denominations are equally good. 

But yeah, definitely start a new topic on this! I'd love to go into it more with you. :)

Edited July 24, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[Amppax]

We understand the fact that salvation comes from Christ to be something a like a scientific fact - on par with believing in the existence of gravity or that force equals mass times acceleration. It's just the way the world works. We believe that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ, contains the fullness of divine revelation, etc. But I think it's important to point out that we believe the Body of Christ isn't just the card-carrying practicing Catholics. We believed that you enter into the Body of Christ when you're baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I think it's an important distinction. It's also why some converts aren't re-baptized, just confirmed. 

In some ways, you're right - Catholics can believe that because salvation comes from Christ alone, and in so far as other religions are similar to Christianity, it's theoretically possible that God can use those religions to bring people to him. Again, it's not those religions that are salvific, but Christ and the Church. But the reason why that is even possible is because of Christ and that the Church exists. Karl Rahner talks about the idea of "anonymous Christians" - people who aren't Christians but are using their reason and conscience and honestly seeking the truth, some of whom can be saved, and that salvation does come from Christ. His ideas sound similar to what you might be getting at. The danger with it is to make sure we aren't supposing that the Church isn't necessary, or that all religions are equally good, or even that all Christian denominations are equally good. 

But yeah, definitely start a new topic on this! I'd love to go into it more with you. :)

 

This'll be fun. I'm down for this discussion.