Why Does The Church Oppose Magic And What Counts As Magic?

[mortify ii]

From what I understand, whether one uses an occult object or not, just having it around is no good...same might apply to your avatar, could serve as a trigger or something. Just a suggestion though, I'm not offended by it!

 

It's oozing with Catholic symbolism of both an exoteric and esoteric nature. Maybe consider the fact that folks like Hans Ur Von Balthasar did not find meditating on the Tarot problematic. 

[HisChildForever]

One of the most popular magical rites begins with "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever, amen." Surely that doesn't mean that the Our Father is now an evil prayer.

 

No, just that it's being abused...like how satanists abuse and mock the Mass.

[Nihil Obstat]

Mortify, if you want to call yourself a traditional Catholic, I seriously doubt you should continue down this particular road. It leads to dangerously gnostic places.

[ChristianGirlForever]

People fear what they don't understand.

No, actually, I just know to stay away from that which is ungodly. Curiosity can turn into temptation to sin.

In the Orthodox Church there are ignorant people who like to mix paganism with Christianity, and our priests have to lead them away from this sort of thing. Tarot cards would fall under the same category. Catholicism is no different in this area.

Paganism and Christianity have no harmony with each other.

[HisChildForever]

Mortify, if you want to call yourself a traditional Catholic, I seriously doubt you should continue down this particular road. It leads to dangerously gnostic places.

 

I have to say I'm surprised too... :ohno: Mortify, do you own and use Tarot cards and, if yes, how?

[mortify ii]

Mortify, if you want to call yourself a traditional Catholic, I seriously doubt you should continue down this particular road. It leads to dangerously gnostic places.

 

Nihil, I am not a typical Trad although I fully desire the restoration of the TLM as the ordinary form. I personally believe reducing our religion to the lowest and basest level contributed to the fallout we are experiencing today. People are hungry for something deeper and more spiritual, and our Faith is overflowing with it, but it has been hidden and marginalized. I understand the dangers you refer to, but the same could be applied to St Thomas trying to harmonized Pagan philosophy with Catholicism. 

[mortify ii]

I have to say I'm surprised too... :ohno: Mortify, do you own and use Tarot cards and, if yes, how?

 

I don't use Tarot cards, I have an academic interest in occultism and hermeticism and own a copy of Meditations on the Tarot. 

[mortify ii]

No, actually, I just know to stay away from that which is ungodly. Curiosity can turn into temptation to sin.

In the Orthodox Church there are ignorant people who like to mix paganism with Christianity, and our priests have to lead them away from this sort of thing. Tarot cards would fall under the same category. Catholicism is no different in this area.

Paganism and Christianity have no harmony with each other.

 

I can't speak for contemporary Orthodoxy however Catholic authors have found no problem in studying the works of non-Catholics. St Thomas Aquinas was acquainted with the works of Jewish, Muslim, and Pagan Greek philosophers, all of which could have been argued to "mix" Catholicism with false religions. The Catholic mentality is to eat the flesh but leave the bones, take what is good and useful and where there is error leave it be. Now with regards to the esoteric we find something peculiar, religions that can differ considerably in there external doctrines and practices can find an area of commonality in the esoteric sphere. On the esoteric side there is true ecumenism. 

[ChristianGirlForever]

I can't speak for contemporary Orthodoxy however Catholic authors have found no problem in studying the works of non-Catholics. St Thomas Aquinas was acquainted with the works of Jewish, Muslim, and Pagan Greek philosophers, all of which could have been argued to "mix" Catholicism with false religions. The Catholic mentality is to eat the flesh but leave the bones, take what is good and useful and where there is error leave it be. Now with regards to the esoteric we find something peculiar, religions that can differ considerably in there external doctrines and practices can find an area of commonality in the esoteric sphere. On the esoteric side there is true ecumenism.

I understand what you're saying, but there is no temptation to start worshipping Ancient Greek gods. Unless one is reading a book on the occult from a reputable Christian perspective, I would be concerned lest they begin to think modern paganism to be harmless. It reminds me of the oft-used metaphor of the frog and the boiling water vs. the heating water. Best be careful and know a little less about something not essential to your daily life than go near something that could influence you in a not-good direction. Your soul is much more important than that.

[superblue]

Taro Cards, " black magic ", voo doo, heck even the old native americans had a type of ritual / magic belief system,

 

My question would be, if I could re ask it, would be does the Church oppose such things because they are real, meaning the spells, the beliefs and the rituals do have a tangible outcome that is evil, not just the spiritual separation from Christ and God.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not out playing with any of it in any form, I just find it ridiculous to believe in reciting a spell and throwing chicken bones and blowing perfumed smoke into the air is actually going to do anything to anyone, if that is the case I mine as well get some rocks out of my yard, bang em against my trash can and say that I am some kind of magician from Hogwarts or whatever.

 

Ancient cultures also believed in gods that would control the weather, evidently they were wrong because  I don't see anyone doing a rain dance any more or going to a solstice in the thousands to do what ever it is to bring in the new weather.

 

The only real thing I can see opposing is how it misdirects peoples beliefs in their faith in a real living and loving God.

[Nihil Obstat]

Nihil, I am not a typical Trad although I fully desire the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass as the ordinary form. I personally believe reducing our religion to the lowest and basest level contributed to the fallout we are experiencing today. People are hungry for something deeper and more spiritual, and our Faith is overflowing with it, but it has been hidden and marginalized. I understand the dangers you refer to, but the same could be applied to St Thomas trying to harmonized Pagan philosophy with Catholicism. 

The difference is that there actually was harmony between classical Greek philosophy and Catholicism. We already know where the pagan occult leads, when it is synthesized with Christianity: Gnosticism.

[mortify ii]

Taro Cards, " black magic ", voo doo, heck even the old native americans had a type of ritual / magic belief system,

 

My question would be, if I could re ask it, would be does the Church oppose such things because they are real, meaning the spells, the beliefs and the rituals do have a tangible outcome that is evil, not just the spiritual separation from Christ and God.  

 

It's playing with fire. Summoning forces exposes oneself to their influences. Its like taking a medication that gives temporary benefit but has severe and possible deadly adverse events. 

[mortify ii]

The difference is that there actually was harmony between classical Greek philosophy and Catholicism. We already know where the pagan occult leads, when it is synthesized with Christianity: Gnosticism.

 

There is incredible esoteric unity as well, Nihil. I think I have shared my experience here before that I was an initiate in the Naksibendi Tariqat before returning to Catholicism. Those murids reached a level of spiritual advancement and sanctity that I have not found among Catholics who are exposed to the sacraments. That does not mean the sacraments are ineffective, only that souls receiving them have not properly disposed themselves. Nor am I saying non-Catholic rituals are salvific, but it is demonstratively apparent to me that certain non-Catholics have tapped into something very real and genuine that if practiced will bring them closer to God. 

[superblue]

It's playing with fire. Summoning forces exposes oneself to their influences. Its like taking a medication that gives temporary benefit but has severe and possible deadly adverse events. 

So are you suggesting, that black magic and everything else, has a physical affect / effect on the physical world ?  Meaning if someone who is into black magic ran upon me or you and threw some kinda dust or something on us ( not chemically lethal ) and babbled off some incantation that we should be terrified that something bad is going to happen to us and go running to a priest for protection ?

 

I mean the people into voo doo , do creep me out, for some reason them and wegee boards to me seem more closely related to satan, versus people walking into some supposed black magic shop buying some goth looking potions and books and or calling upon what ever wicca powers they have to actually do something.

 

And then how and why could someone who has been a good person, not engaged in any of this, become possessed by an evil spirit from satan and need an exorcist ?  But those engaging in black magic an the like do not need an exorcist ?? or do they ?

[superblue]

The difference is that there actually was harmony between classical Greek philosophy and Catholicism. We already know where the pagan occult leads, when it is synthesized with Christianity: Gnosticism.

 

 

Then what is it called when Catholicism takes a pagan ritual ie, the winter solstice and mingles it with the faith by using the  " Christmas Tree and Wreaths " at Christmas, and has never stopped using that practice.  very serious question by the way.