Why Does The Church Oppose Magic And What Counts As Magic?

[The Hierophant]

I'm not planning on doing it, the point was just that to someone who used to practice magic, prayers like the Rosary or Chaplet look a lot like certain forms of "theurgic" magic. Of course, Paul does tell us that devils masquerade as angels of light... still, though, now that I think about it, I do think "theurgists" have more of an attitude of expectation than supplication, and some of might just be a matter of right worship, as was said.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Hierophant, if I were you I would refrain from now on from comparing magic to Christian prayer. They are two separate things. Prayer is holy, while magic is evil. (There is no good magic, except in fairy tales.)

People can find it difficult or impossible to escape the occult, but you have, thank God. I would focus on that and completely leave your old life behind you. Just as you would stop an improper thought in its tracks, try to do the same with anything of magic. You don't want to be tempted in any way.

Also, you might want to talk to your pastor about this. Maybe he can help you.

Prayers for you,

Nina

[HisChildForever]

I'm not planning on doing it, the point was just that to someone who used to practice magic, prayers like the Rosary or Chaplet look a lot like certain forms of "theurgic" magic. Of course, Paul does tell us that devils masquerade as angels of light... still, though, now that I think about it, I do think "theurgists" have more of an attitude of expectation than supplication, and some of might just be a matter of right worship, as was said.

 

With all due respect, if you're trying to leave magic behind you, why did you create a screen name and avatar of a Tarot card?

[mortify ii]

With all due respect, if you're trying to leave magic behind you, why did you create a screen name and avatar of a Tarot card?

 

Believe it or not there is such a thing as Catholic hermeticism and a way to interpret the Cards of Tarot, which themselves are like a book carrying a message, that is consistent with Christianity. 

 

Again, I refer to Meditations on the Tarot, there is an online version here:

 

http://tarothermeneutics.com/tarotliterature/MOTT/Meditations-on-the-Tarot.pdf

 

See page 105

[HisChildForever]

Believe it or not there is such a thing as Catholic hermeticism and a way to interpret the Cards of Tarot, which themselves are like a book carrying a message, that is consistent with Christianity. 

 

Again, I refer to Meditations on the Tarot, there is an online version here:

 

http://tarothermeneutics.com/tarotliterature/MOTT/Meditations-on-the-Tarot.pdf

 

See page 105

 

Tarot cards are used for divination. Cards consist of a goddess figure and even the devil. I used to have a pack when I was a teen but tossed them years ago. I have a hard time reconciling them with Christianity. But be that as it may, even if they carry a message consistent with Christianity, a person who used to dabble in the occult should distance themselves from all things occult, including Tarot.

[mortify ii]

Tarot cards are used for divination. Cards consist of a goddess figure and even the devil. I used to have a pack when I was a teen but tossed them years ago. I have a hard time reconciling them with Christianity. But be that as it may, even if they carry a message consistent with Christianity, a person who used to dabble in the occult should distance themselves from all things occult, including Tarot.

 

You're interpreting them on the surface, there is a much deeper and esoteric reading of these cards, which as I pointed to above are not merely cards but a "book" of sorts carrying a message. 

[The Hierophant]

Tarot cards were originally playing cards that had nothing to do with divination.  They have symbolic significance.

[mortify ii]

Hans von balthasar actually wrote a forward to the above mentioned book on the Tarot, worth reading:

 

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/scaldecott_hubtarot_apr07.asp

 

===QUOTE===

 

"We are all aware of the popularity of witchcraft, magic, astrology and the "New Age" movement. The cults and new religions are growing in number and strength every year: in contrast, the Catholic Church is often represented as a fossil, its life extinguished by centuries of dogmatism. True Christianity, says the New Age, has been lost, or retreated underground where only an elite few can find it. Meditations on the Tarot answers these accusations. It claims that Christianity has not been lost at all, but has been preserved precisely by those institutions and dogmas that, to the New Agers, appear opposed to the life of the Spirit. The book was written by a remarkable convert, an experienced occultist who finally discovered "that there are guardian angels; that there are saints who participate actively in our lives; that the Blessed Virgin is real... that the sacraments are effective... that prayer is a powerful means of charity; that the ecclesiastical hierarchy reflects the celestial hierarchical order... that, lastly, the Master himself--although he loves everyone, Christians of all confession as well as all non-Christians--abides with his Church, since he is always present there, since he visits the faithful there and instructs his disciples there."

By means of 22 meditations, in the form of "letters to an unknown friend", the anonymous author attempts to assimilate his vast store of "esoteric" knowledge, gleaned from years of spiritual training in the more serious New Age groups, within the orthodox Catholic vision of faith. The Tarot cards are used, not for divination, but as symbolic encapsulations of the wisdom he has leant. "The High priestess warns us of the danger of Gnosticism in teaching the discipline of true gnosis. The Empress evokes the dangers of mediumship and magic in revealing to us the mysteries of scared magic. The Emperor warns us of the will-to-power and teaches us the power of the Cross."

Hans Urs von Balthasar has compared the author to Charles Williams, Hildegard of Bingen and even St Bonaventure, praising (with certain qualifications) the book's "superabundance of genuine, fruitful insights". An example of such an insight might be the distinction it draws between three forms of mystical experience: union with Nature, with the transcendental human Self and with God. The first is pantheism; the second lies at the heart of the Eastern religions, and leads to metaphysical distortions when Westerners take the Self to be identical with God. The third is the goal of Christianity, and is inevitably dualistic because it involves the union in love between two distinct beings. Characteristic of this third kind of mystical experience is the "gift of tears", whereas the "advanced pupil of yoga or Vedanta will forever have dry eyes". 

At its orthodox core, the Hermetic wisdom boils down to the doctrine of analogy: "As above, so below." By exploring the implications of this symbolic correspondence between different levels of reality, the author opens a dimension of depth on the Scriptures and dogmas of the Church. Take the so-called Law of Reward: "Renunciation of what is desired below sets in motion forces of realization above." This leads the author into an analysis of the three sacred vows--poverty, chastity and obedience--as the basis, not just of monastic life, but of all spiritual realization. The three temptations of Christ in the wilderness are directed at the three vows, the angels who came to minister to him after his triple victory are the "response from above", bringing him a threefold reward. 

The three vows are also related to the five wounds, the Stigmata: "obediencerivets the will-to-greatness of the heart", "poverty holds fast the desire to take and the desire to keep of the right hand and the left hand", while "chastitypins down the desires of the 'Nimrodic hunter'." Christ's triple victory flowers into the seven sacraments, each corresponding to one of the "seven archetypal miracles" and one of the seven "I am" sayings in the Gospel of John. Exposing in this way hidden connections that link seemingly unrelated events in the Bible, Meditations on the Tarot aims to attune us with the breath of the Holy Spirit, who inspires and vivifies Scripture. 



    

 

Meditations on the Tarot has flaws: the influence of anthroposophy is still too evident, for example, in the discussion of reincarnation. But potentially important for the future of the New Age movement is its breakthrough realization that, in Christianity, the esoteric and the exoteric cannot be separated, because "the spiritual world is essentially moral".

More could be said about Balthasar's Foreword or Introduction to the French edition, which was reproduced in slightly truncated form as an Afterword to the English paperback edition. That Foreword originally began: "Having been asked to write an introduction to this book, which for most readers enters into unknown terrain, and yet is so richly rewarding to read, I must first of all acknowledge my lack of competence concerning the subject matter. I am not in a position to follow up and approve of each line of thought developed by the author, and still less to submit everything to a critical examination. However, such an abundance of noteworthy material is offered here, that one may not pass it by with indifference." 

Also omitted at the end of the piece from the English edition were the following comments of Balthasar's: "[The author] may from time to time make a step from the middle too far to the left (in presenting, for example, the teaching of reincarnation), or too far to the right (in occasionally approaching in a somewhat 'fundamentalist' manner Catholic religious opinions and practices, thereby coming too close to Church dogma, sometimes arriving quite unexpectedly as evangelical counsel or the rosary prayer, for example)." He continues then, as in the published text, "However, the superabundance--almost too much--of genuine, fruitful insights which he conveys, certainly justifies bringing these Meditations to a wider circle of readers."

By the latter criticisms I think Balthasar meant that there remained a certain imbalance in Tomberg's thought and method, which did not always rest in the calm centre of Catholic truth and flow from there, but struggled to reconcile and integrate the turbulent currents of Hermetic thought with the teachings of the Magisterium. I don't have access to the original French of the phrase translated here as "coming too close to Catholic dogma" and would welcome some clarification of this, but I suspect he just means that Tomberg jumps too quickly at times from one of his insights to some dogma or devotion without recognizing that these spring perhaps from another source.

I think that Tomberg's intention of fidelity to the Church and his love of Christ is fairly evident. Even while he had been a leading figure in Steiner's Anthroposophical Society before his conversion to Catholicism at the end of the Second World War his work was directed largely at making Christ better known and loved in the Society. Tomberg was apparently received into the Church in Germany, after working on a Doctoral thesis about human rights that was partly based on a study of Thomas Aquinas. He was deeply opposed to Nazism, and hid himself during much of the War in Amsterdam where he was studying also the Lord's Prayer with a small circle of friends. There he became involved for a time in the Orthodox Church (he had been born in St Petersberg in 1900, so this was a way of returning to his roots). After the War, as a Catholic, he gave lectures in legal philosophy, and from 1948 was able to employ his vast knowledge of languages working for the BBC in London, monitoring broadcasts from the USSR. For many of his remaining years, till his death in 1973, he lived near Reading. 

 

===END QUOTE===

[Nihil Obstat]

Tarot cards were originally playing cards that had nothing to do with divination.  They have symbolic significance.

These two sentences seem somewhat contradictory. Obviously it is true that originally they had no deeper meaning beyond the games they were developed for. It is also true now that they have taken on certain symbolic significance. But at the very least you cannot have it both ways simultaneously.

[ChristianGirlForever]

I've never even touched Tarot cards, but I know that forms of occult divination are not consistent with our Christian faith. I find it disturbing that someone on this forum would defend the use of these cards.

Thank you, HisChildForever for pointing out the avatar and name. I had no idea of its meaning. Yikes.

Via the priest of a Catholic friend of mine I happen to know that even Centering Prayer is not condoned by the Catholic Church. How, then, can one justify the use of Tarot cards?

[The Hierophant]

Well, I think they had some symbolic significance when used as playing cards, although probably as they developed they gathered more symbolism. But one can appreciate a symbol that is used in divination without using it for divination.  There is nothing irreverent in this image so far as I can see.

Edited July 14, 2014 by The Hierophant

[mortify ii]

I've never even touched Tarot cards, but I know that forms of occult divination are not consistent with our Christian faith. I find it disturbing that someone on this forum would defend the use of these cards.

 

People fear what they don't understand. 

[The Hierophant]

One of the most popular magical rites begins with "for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever, amen." Surely that doesn't mean that the Our Father is now an evil prayer.

[mortify ii]

Just to clarify, I'm not justifying the use of the cards for divination but there is a meditative value that is consistent with Catholicism. 

[HisChildForever]

Well, I think they had some symbolic significance when used as playing cards, although probably as they developed they gathered more symbolism. But one can appreciate a symbol that is used in divination without using it for divination.  There is nothing irreverent in this image so far as I can see.

 

From what I understand, whether one uses an occult object or not, just having it around is no good...same might apply to your avatar, could serve as a trigger or something. Just a suggestion though, I'm not offended by it!