Is It Moral To Make Contraception Illegal?

[Socrates]

The majority of the population is not in favor of death camps and genocide and thus those are not legal, therefore your analogy fails.

 

If you lived in a time and place where the majority of the population was in favor of such things, would it be wrong to try to publicly push to end and outlaw such horrors, or just keep quiet until you were certain the majority shared your view?

 

 

 

The culture changes laws, laws NEVER change the culture.  . . . 

 

Wrong.

 

Laws are a part of "the culture," and do have at least some influence on people's thinking.  It's moronic, but people will actually say things like, "abortion can't be wrong; it's a legal right."

 

Laws do have an effect on people's behavior.  I don't think it purely coincidental that abortion rates soared after the Roe v. Wade decision declared abortion a legal "right," as opposed to before, when it was illegal in most states.

 

Do you think the push by Martin Luther King Jr. and other civil rights leaders to end Jim Crow laws and legal segregation had absolutely no effect on our culture?

Or the earlier push by abolitionists to end slavery?

 

 

And I think it hard to deny that, if enacted, laws against abortion would have at least some deterrent effect.  Those really determined to do so would find a way to kill their baby anyway, but many, especially those "on the fence" about getting abortion, would be deterred into choosing life.

 

By your logic, why have laws against any murder (or anything)?  I mean, people who want to murder will do so anyway, regardless of the law, while people don't want to murder to need the law to keep from killing people.

[dairygirl4u2c]

socretes sounds like if he's arguing for gun laws, if you insert 'gun deaths' for abortion and follow the logic of culture and access etc.

[Credo in Deum]

If you lived in a time and place where the majority of the population was in favor of such things, would it be wrong to try to publicly push to end and outlaw such horrors, or just keep quiet until you were certain the majority shared your view?

 

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

Laws are a part of "the culture," and do have at least some influence on people's thinking.  It's moronic, but people will actually say things like, "abortion can't be wrong; it's a legal right."

 

Laws do have an effect on people's behavior.  I don't think it purely coincidental that abortion rates soared after the Roe v. Wade decision declared abortion a legal "right," as opposed to before, when it was illegal in most states.

 

Do you think the push by Martin Luther King Jr. and other civil rights leaders to end Jim Crow laws and legal segregation had absolutely no effect on our culture?

Or the earlier push by abolitionists to end slavery?

 

 

And I think it hard to deny that, if enacted, laws against abortion would have at least some deterrent effect.  Those really determined to do so would find a way to kill their baby anyway, but many, especially those "on the fence" about getting abortion, would be deterred into choosing life.

 

By your logic, why have laws against any murder (or anything)?  I mean, people who want to murder will do so anyway, regardless of the law, while people don't want to murder to need the law to keep from killing people.

 

 

Exactly!  At the least the ban on abortions would drastically change the amount of babies that are being butchered by abortion mills.   Even that is a win, compared to the "lets try to change their hearts and outlooks so then one day the majority of people will be ready to accept an abortion free society".  That day may never come!  It's time we ban abortion and prosecute those who are caught violating the law.  It's how the system works with every other type of murder.

[PhuturePriest]

If you lived in a time and place where the majority of the population was in favor of such things, would it be wrong to try to publicly push to end and outlaw such horrors, or just keep quiet until you were certain the majority shared your view?

 

You have shown an amazing ability to completely misunderstand me. You deserve an award if you weren't even trying.

 

I never said we shouldn't try to make it illegal. But in our political climate, we can't, as is evident by the fact that every time we try, it is unanimously shot down in flames. We need to change the culture before we can change the laws.

 

And in response to your first post, again, you deserve a medal. I never said abortion was justified. I said that economically speaking, for a lot of young women, they literally have no other option, because we haven't done a good enough job offering them another one. Want to stop abortion? Destroy the entire cause of 99% of abortions and found or support crisis pregnancy centers. It's been 40 years. I don't mean to shock you, but it appears trying to make it illegal by going to the Government and signing petitions has accomplished next to nothing. We are no closer to making it illegal than we were in 1973, and it's our fault, because we've been trying to fix it in the wrong way.

[Lilllabettt]

I never said we shouldn't try to make it illegal. But in our political climate, we can't, as is evident by the fact that every time we try, it is unanimously shot down in flames. 

 

And in response to your first post, again, you deserve a medal. I never said abortion was justified. I said that economically speaking, for a lot of young women, they literally have no other option, 

 

 

1. I don't know of any serious recent attempts to make abortion illegal on the national level. Maybe in Kansas they try it, idk. But in fact the political culture is more suspicious of abortion "rights" and more friendly to abortion restriction than it has been in any of the 40 years since Roe. imo, incrementalism is a better approach to avoid scaring off that support. and that is the current approach of the mainstream movement - only a few radicals are pushing abolition.

 

2. The idea that women "literally" have no other option and must get an abortion because of their situation is a lie abortionists use to convince women to end their pregnancies. Women buy into that and then get abortions because they feel they have no choice. When you say things like "they literally have no other option" you are stripping women of their agency. Don't do it. Empowered women do not get abortions. 

[PhuturePriest]

1. I don't know of any serious recent attempts to make abortion illegal on the national level. Maybe in Kansas they try it, idk. But in fact the political culture is more suspicious of abortion "rights" and more friendly to abortion restriction than it has been in any of the 40 years since Roe. imo, incrementalism is a better approach to avoid scaring off that support. and that is the current approach of the mainstream movement - only a few radicals are pushing abolition.

 

2. The idea that women "literally" have no other option and must get an abortion because of their situation is a lie abortionists use to convince women to end their pregnancies. Women buy into that and then get abortions because they feel they have no choice. When you say things like "they literally have no other option" you are stripping women of their agency. Don't do it. Empowered women do not get abortions. 

 

Again, I'm speaking from an economic standpoint. They could in theory get 2 jobs or something and work super hard, but in our culture, working hard isn't exactly a virtue. A lot of women feel like they have no choice, regardless if they have more or not. So, give them more options. Crisis pregnancy centers, people. Get cracking.

[Nihil Obstat]

but in our culture, working hard isn't exactly a virtue.

Wat.

[Credo in Deum]

Again, I'm speaking from an economic standpoint. They could in theory get 2 jobs or something and work super hard, but in our culture, working hard isn't exactly a virtue. A lot of women feel like they have no choice, regardless if they have more or not. So, give them more options. Crisis pregnancy centers, people. Get cracking.

 

How many crises pregnancy centers would be needed -as well as the funding for those centers- to keep up with the staggering amount of abortions that happen every year?  

[Blackwagonman]

Just curious how people feel about abortion mills having fewer medical regulations than your local veteranary clinic?  Sadly, this is true.  Recently a gun control research article I read stated that crime rates have dropped with the increase in abortions.  Funny because over 5 million abortions occured over the time frame of the research article.  Think about that 5 MILLION people dead.  That is like killing an entire major metro areas population.  Go figure crime has decreased.  Abortion is a travesty, no it is a holocost, that preys on the babies of poor minorities.   Laws can be immoral. 

[dairygirl4u2c]

random question. do homosexuals add sin upon sin by using condoms, or is that actually something a catholic should promote?

 

i'd think the clear catholic response, is that homosexual men should use condoms. no?

[Socrates]

You have shown an amazing ability to completely misunderstand me. You deserve an award if you weren't even trying.

 

I never said we shouldn't try to make it illegal. But in our political climate, we can't, as is evident by the fact that every time we try, it is unanimously shot down in flames. We need to change the culture before we can change the laws.

 

Thanks.  I'll take the medals and hang them on my wall.

 

It was never exactly clear what your own position was, but since a lot of people do use the "we can't do anything on the legal front" argument to justify abandoning the legal/political fight altogether, or even supporting pro-abortion politicians, I felt this needed to be clarified.

 

To make any significant laws directly against abortion in our country, Roe v. Wade will have to be reversed, and this will require solidly pro-life justices, and significant legal challenges.  It won't be a quick or easy process.  Some small victories have been made, but we have to keep plugging.  A majority of Americans do favor at least some restrictions on abortion.  Roe v. Wade was not the result of a popular uprising, but of the dictatorial decision of activist Supreme Court justices.

 

 

And in response to your first post, again, you deserve a medal. I never said abortion was justified. I said that economically speaking, for a lot of young women, they literally have no other option, because we haven't done a good enough job offering them another one. Want to stop abortion? Destroy the entire cause of 99% of abortions and found or support crisis pregnancy centers. It's been 40 years. I don't mean to shock you, but it appears trying to make it illegal by going to the Government and signing petitions has accomplished next to nothing. We are no closer to making it illegal than we were in 1973, and it's our fault, because we've been trying to fix it in the wrong way.

 

 

You said abortion is "needed."  If abortion is indeed truly a necessity for most women getting them, and they truly have no other option, then it would be justified.  Again, how many babies now need to be killed after birth?  The situation's no different, except for the baby's location.

Keeping the baby may involve very real hardships, sacrifices, and challenges, but single mothers can and do raise children.

 

Not sure where you get your "99%" figure, but not all, or even 99%, of women who get abortions are in true life-threatening poverty, and not all are even poor.  Statistically, over a fourth of American women get at least one abortion by the end of their child-bearing years; it's not something limited only to those in extreme desperate cases.

 

While I do think we should support and build more crisis pregnancy centers, it's very naive to think that simply building more of them will in itself virtually eliminate abortion.

I'm a member of a parish where people do a lot of sidewalk counseling and such, and there are plenty of crisis pregnancy centers.  Many women considering abortion are counseled and referred to these centers, yet sadly still many choose to abort their babies anyway.  Oftentimes, getting an abortion (especially early in the pregnancy) seems an easy fix compared with going through the pain of carrying the baby to term and giving birth, only to give the child away to the care of complete strangers, which can be emotionally wrenching.

 

It would be wonderful if every single woman who had the services of a crisis pregnancy center available to her would choose life, but that's simply not the reality.

 

The truth is that abortion will have to be fought on many different fronts, and there is no easy quick-fix solution to the evil of abortion.

Ultimately, this war will only be won with a widespread conversion to Christ, and a culture that has reverence for human life, and upholds morality, marriage, and the family.

 

And many pro-lifers, who oppose abortion's legality, are building and supporting crisis pregnancy centers and doing other things to help women in difficult pregnancies.  Could we do more?  Probably, but placing all the blame for the abortion problem on pro-lifers collectively is simply wrong.  You're not shocking me with your ideas, as I've been familiar with the pro-life movement since before you were born.

[Socrates]

Wat.

 

Ditto.

[Nihil Obstat]

Thanks.  I'll take the medals and hang them on my wall.

 

It was never exactly clear what your own position was, but since a lot of people do use the "we can't do anything on the legal front" argument to justify abandoning the legal/political fight altogether, or even supporting pro-abortion politicians, I felt this needed to be clarified.

 

To make any significant laws directly against abortion in our country, Roe v. Wade will have to be reversed, and this will require solidly pro-life justices, and significant legal challenges.  It won't be a quick or easy process.  Some small victories have been made, but we have to keep plugging.  A majority of Americans do favor at least some restrictions on abortion.  Roe v. Wade was not the result of a popular uprising, but of the dictatorial decision of activist Supreme Court justices.

 

 

 

You said abortion is "needed."  If abortion is indeed truly a necessity for most women getting them, and they truly have no other option, then it would be justified.  Again, how many babies now need to be killed after birth?  The situation's no different, except for the baby's location.

Keeping the baby may involve very real hardships, sacrifices, and challenges, but single mothers can and do raise children.

 

Not sure where you get your "99%" figure, but not all, or even 99%, of women who get abortions are in true life-threatening poverty, and not all are even poor.  Statistically, over a fourth of American women get at least one abortion by the end of their child-bearing years; it's not something limited only to those in extreme desperate cases.

 

While I do think we should support and build more crisis pregnancy centers, it's very naive to think that simply building more of them will in itself virtually eliminate abortion.

I'm a member of a parish where people do a lot of sidewalk counseling and such, and there are plenty of crisis pregnancy centers.  Many women considering abortion are counseled and referred to these centers, yet sadly still many choose to abort their babies anyway.  Oftentimes, getting an abortion (especially early in the pregnancy) seems an easy fix compared with going through the pain of carrying the baby to term and giving birth, only to give the child away to the care of complete strangers, which can be emotionally wrenching.

 

It would be wonderful if every single woman who had the services of a crisis pregnancy center available to her would choose life, but that's simply not the reality.

 

The truth is that abortion will have to be fought on many different fronts, and there is no easy quick-fix solution to the evil of abortion.

Ultimately, this war will only be won with a widespread conversion to Christ, and a culture that has reverence for human life, and upholds morality, marriage, and the family.

 

And many pro-lifers, who oppose abortion's legality, are building and supporting crisis pregnancy centers and doing other things to help women in difficult pregnancies.  Could we do more?  Probably, but placing all the blame for the abortion problem on pro-lifers collectively is simply wrong.  You're not shocking me with your ideas, as I've been familiar with the pro-life movement since before you were born.

Dude, sometimes you are too 'Murica for my taste, but this is brilliant.

[dairygirl4u2c]

soc is like the epitome of 'Murica. if you looked up 'Murica in the dictionary, you would see his picture.

[Socrates]

Dude, sometimes you are too 'Murica for my taste, but this is brilliant.

 

Thanks.  You ain't bad yourself . . . for a Canuck.  (jk)