PhuturePriest Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I dont like the idea that the only way for a woman to be "strong" is that she has to be stripped of her sexuality. I dont think thats fair. Nearly every single male protagonist is able to be kick arse as well as have interest in a female...his amesome is never in question. He doesnt abandon his sexuality. But I also dont expect a cute kids cartoon to get too sexual either...so I feel like you cant really use the fact they arent sexualized as a major point. I do appreciate your response, it was much more informative. Im not familiar with the Bechdel test either. It is also worth noting that you seem to not like the movie because there is a strong male character in it. Are you saying the only way to properly express femininity is by reducing masculinity, and having anything strongly masculine minimizes femininity? Because that belief in itself is sexist towards women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 FP, go take a chill pill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) FP, go take a chill pill. I'm not angry. I'm showing gigantic issues in your posts that contradict true femininity. There is nothing more complimentary in life than strong femininity and masculinity. Showing a strong male lead does not minimize strong female leads, it enhances them, and vice-versa. Edited July 8, 2014 by FuturePriest387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) Im not familiar with her character. But think about her, and read through the questionnaire I quoted from the article. Does she pass? Yes, I believe she would pass. She is Kate Mulgrew, her character was Captain Janeway. She kicked Borg butt, and she gave the orders. Edited July 8, 2014 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Yes, I believe she would pass. She is Kate Mulgrew, her character was Captain Janeway. She kicked Borg butt, and she gave the orders. Janeway was awesome. Although I must admit, she was extremely free with the photon torpedoes. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'm not angry. I'm showing gigantic issues in your posts that contradict true femininity. There is nothing more complimentary in life than strong femininity and masculinity. Showing a strong male lead does not minimize strong female leads, it enhances them, and vice-versa. What is true femininity to you FP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 What is true femininity to you FP? I would look to the Church for that answer. But since you made this thread, I would say the question is really what you think femininity is. So far from your posts, being feminine is being a BA woman in charge who is free with photon torpedoes and doesn't have any strong masculine leads near her, as any whiff of masculinity somehow reduces femininity, which is in itself a belief that is sexist towards women, and you haven't reconciled or clarified that part in particular, which I am very much interested in a response to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I dont like the idea that the only way for a woman to be "strong" is that she has to be stripped of her sexuality. I dont think thats fair. Nearly every single male protagonist is able to be kick arse as well as have interest in a female...his amesome is never in question. He doesnt abandon his sexuality. But I also dont expect a cute kids cartoon to get too sexual either...so I feel like you cant really use the fact they arent sexualized as a major point. I do appreciate your response, it was much more informative. Im not familiar with the Bechdel test either. I think you misunderstand me a bit. I actually think Elsa as a character is very sexual (see her 'transformation' sequence; I think Elsa the Ice Queen is a clearly sexual being, and I think her transformation is an awakening of sorts, to her sexuality) But I do not think her 'badassitude' is sexualized. That is an important difference. Many female 'badass' characters are only badass so that they can be sexy while doing it. Lara Croft, for example (although that is perhaps too shallow a look at her). Elsa is badass, but she is badass not so that she can be sexy, but simply because she as a character is badass. And her character has a sexual dimension, but not for the sake of a male love interest, but just because she - as a person - has a sexual component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I think you misunderstand me a bit. I actually think Elsa as a character is very sexual (see her 'transformation' sequence; I think Elsa the Ice Queen is a clearly sexual being, and I think her transformation is an awakening of sorts, to her sexuality) But I do not think her 'badassitude' is sexualized. That is an important difference. Many female 'badass' characters are only badass so that they can be sexy while doing it. Lara Croft, for example (although that is perhaps too shallow a look at her). Elsa is badass, but she is badass not so that she can be sexy, but simply because she as a character is badass. And her character has a sexual dimension, but not for the sake of a male love interest, but just because she - as a person - has a sexual component. Ah ok! Im cool with that. I think thats a good explanation and thats all I was really getting at in my post...although I admit I was probably being confusing because I didnt explain myself. What I mean was that I dont think that a women needs to lose her identity as a woman to be a strong character. Maybe that will help FP a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Also just in general (Kind of going off of what Arfink mention earlier) the percentage of the world of film that most people see is incredibly small; they see the large releases. But thats a very narrow section of the entire film world because if you look at independent films and non prime-time network television shows, they're filled with loads of strong female leads! Which is epic! However they don't get nearly the exposure that everything else gets because of money and the fact that Hollywood is a business that wants to give people what will make them the most $$$$. What we need is more female voices in mainstream hollywood. If you look to organizations like Disney to be the front runner of a system of change, don't hold your breath. The company is designed to make money, and the surest way to make money in film is to do that same thing that made money the last time oyu did it; thats why it's slow to change. It's the same reason mainstream films come in fads like Hunger Games, Divergent, Ender's Game, etc. Hollywood just rides out the wave of surefire profits so when they feel that strong independent female leads will generate the big bucks, thats when they'll start cranking them out in the meantime, my advice to the entire world would be to explore films outside of what is advertised to you 24/7 (*cough*frozen*cough*) just because a film has the most money spent on advertising doesn't mean it's any good. And I think FP made a good point earlier when he said "Men just like to be knights"...which is a perfect regurgitation of what men have been shown in film for soooooo long. They havent really been shown much else so they grow up thinking thats the norm. Also, if there aren't any strong females writing scripts for mainstream Hollywood, you're probably not going to see many strong female main characters come out of mainstream hollywood either. I also think that men are much more reluctant (especially now since feminism is much more vocal) to make a woman their lead for fear of being criticized extremely harshly if they get it wrong, despite where their heart is. So like with anything else, gotta encourage people to be the change they want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Ah ok! Im cool with that. I think thats a good explanation and thats all I was really getting at in my post...although I admit I was probably being confusing because I didnt explain myself. What I mean was that I dont think that a women needs to lose her identity as a woman to be a strong character. Maybe that will help FP a little? IMO the idea of the "strong female character" is getting to the point that it is a rather cliched archetype, and perhaps inherently sexist in and of itself. It's like a female character in media can only be either a damsel in distress, or a sexless robotic killing machine, or an eyecandy killing machine. Nothing much in between. It ignores the huge majority of the feminine experience and it reduces femininity to a discrete set of pre-determined archetypes. Male characters do not fare much better, but at the very least they can have complex motivations and responses that I do not think the set of feminine archetypes can achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I took a really hardcore feminist philosophy/film class, so not I have street cred to say this stuff. :| I liked parts of the class, and other parts were a bit uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 IMO the idea of the "strong female character" is getting to the point that it is a rather cliched archetype, and perhaps inherently sexist in and of itself. It's like a female character in media can only be either a damsel in distress, or a sexless robotic killing machine, or an eyecandy killing machine. Nothing much in between. It ignores the huge majority of the feminine experience and it reduces femininity to a discrete set of pre-determined archetypes. Male characters do not fare much better, but at the very least they can have complex motivations and responses that I do not think the set of feminine archetypes can achieve. Yeah I believe the article kind of goes over that as well. But youre absolutely right...its kind of losing its meaning. One exaple they used in the article of a female character with a ton of potential was Hiccups mom from HttYD 2. She has this amazing potential but utterly fizzles out into nothing later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I took a really hardcore feminist philosophy/film class, so not I have street cred to say this stuff. :| I liked parts of the class, and other parts were a bit uncomfortable. :notworthy: :proud: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 IMO the idea of the "strong female character" is getting to the point that it is a rather cliched archetype, and perhaps inherently sexist in and of itself. It's like a female character in media can only be either a damsel in distress, or a sexless robotic killing machine, or an eyecandy killing machine. Nothing much in between. It ignores the huge majority of the feminine experience and it reduces femininity to a discrete set of pre-determined archetypes. Male characters do not fare much better, but at the very least they can have complex motivations and responses that I do not think the set of feminine archetypes can achieve. Exactly. It is easier to find "strong" females than realistic ones. Anime - from Moribito Gaurdian of the Spirit - Balsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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