What Does Eastern Orthodoxy Say About Original Sin?

[ChristianGirlForever]

We don't inherit the guilt, but we inherit the 'pigpen'.
Father Thomas Hopko: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_prodigal_son_and_the_fathers_house/print
"We find ourselves in the pigpen, forgetting the house of the Father, that we have to remind ourself again. And that’s why some fathers say that the forgetfulness of God, the forgetfulness of the Father’s house, is the cause of every sin."

Father Antony Hughes: http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/ancestral_versus_original_sin
"His (Augustine's) misinterpretation of a key scriptural reference, Romans 5:12, is a case in point (Meyendorff, 1979). In Latin the Greek idiom eph ho which means because of was translated as in whom. Saying that all have sinned in Adam is quite different than saying that all sinned because of him. Augustine believed and taught that all humanity has sinned in Adam (Meyendorff, 1979, p. 144). The result is that guilt replaces death as the ancestral inheritance (Augustine, 1956b) Therefore the term original sin conveys the belief that Adam and Eve's sin is the first and universal transgression in which all humanity participates."

I also believe the Catholic term for it is that people bear the "Stain of Original Sin," correct me if I'm wrong.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Does the Roman Church declare that we inherit the "guilt" of Adam and Eve's sin? I have read and re-read that part of the Catechism and I do not find that belief.

Sorry, JohnRyan, I quoted and replied to 1054 about this by accident. I'm not Catholic, so don't quote me, but I believe Catholics believe they inherit the "stain" of original sin.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Life. The purpose of the cross is that Christ died, and by dying conquered death, so we may live.

I actually do not think the EO teaches that we have a stain, but I will wait for 1054 to answer.

You're right, Selah, Orthodox do not believe we have the stain of original sin when we are born and before we have committed any sins of our own. As far as I recall, Catholics believe that the rite of baptism removes this stain, but I might be wrong in that.

[Credo in Deum]

I hope this quote, from One Flew Over the Onion Dome, is a helpful introduction to where I'm coming from:

 

 

 

And this video, on the Orthodox understanding of salvation, is worth a close look.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8

 

I know I'm sidestepping some of the questions here but I hope these go some way to establishing a common ground to talk on. Right now it seems like we're talking at cross-purposes a lot and not understanding what the other means.

 

 

Thank you, Marigold for the video.  The quote above, however, I do not feel helps the dialog between the two sides.  Especially since I think the quote greatly misunderstands the Wests position. Maybe not towards Protestants, but for sure towards Latin Rite Catholics. 

 

I did like the video and do not see the disconnect.  The orthodox way is the way I've always viewed salvation and I do not see where it is at odds with the Latin Rite.  I admit I'm not really well trained or educated on either but I'm trying to learn so bare with me. 

[Credo in Deum]

Bear*

 

I also believe the Catholic term for it is that people bear the "Stain of Original Sin," correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, we call it a "stain" however, this does not mean the guilt of original sin.  It means we bear the consequences of the original sin of Adam,  which is the death of the relationship the soul had with God's grace, and the physical death of our body.  

 

 

[1054]

Sorry for the delay in responding.  I've been having issues with my internet recently and this is the first chance I've had to spend some time on here. 

To be honest, the majority of reading I've done concerning original / ancestral sin has been from an Orthodox viewpoint.  I apologize if I've ever misrepresented the Catholic teaching.  I try to use quotations whenever possible to defer to those who have greater insight and knowledge on these matters. 

[The Hierophant]

Did not read whole thread, but so far as I know, it was an opinion in the West that Adam's descendants inherited his guilt, but it was never a formal doctrine or dogma.  These days that opinion has largely waned.

[1054]

I hope this quote, from One Flew Over the Onion Dome, is a helpful introduction to where I'm coming from:

 

 

 

And this video, on the Orthodox understanding of salvation, is worth a close look.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8

 

I know I'm sidestepping some of the questions here but I hope these go some way to establishing a common ground to talk on. Right now it seems like we're talking at cross-purposes a lot and not understanding what the other means.

Thank you for sharing this video!  I was finally able to watch it!!! 
Absolutely beautiful.  "Christ is Risen, my joy, Christ is Risen!" - Saint Seraphim

[1054]

......

There is an excellent talk available on YouTube given by Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy) Ware on the Orthodox perspective of the Crucifixion.  I don't have access to find it at the moment, but I will search for it for those who may be interested.  I also heartily recommend his book, "The Orthodox Way" which gives an in depth, yet extremely readable, overview of the Orthodox understanding.  He also wrote, "The Orthodox Church" however the focus of this book tends towards the historical whereas "The Orthodox Way" is more theological. 

Finally found it, my memory played tricks on me, the talk's focus is on the Orthodox approach to salvation, not specifically the Crucifixion. 
The link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F7h-TStNd8

The title to search for on YouTube if the link doesn't work for you:
Metropolitan KALLISTOS Ware Salvation in Christ - The Orthodox Approach -Lecture   
posted by: Seraphim William Davidson 

Thanks again to Marigold - the video was suggested from the "Love Wins" video she posted. 
A head's up: the talk Metropolitan Kallistos gives is in Orthodox time (meaning somewhat lengthy).  An hour and a half in lay man terms.  ;) 

 

[marigold]

Thank you, Marigold for the video.  The quote above, however, I do not feel helps the dialog between the two sides.  Especially since I think the quote greatly misunderstands the Wests position. Maybe not towards Protestants, but for sure towards Latin Rite Catholics. 

 

I did like the video and do not see the disconnect.  The orthodox way is the way I've always viewed salvation and I do not see where it is at odds with the Latin Rite.  I admit I'm not really well trained or educated on either but I'm trying to learn so bare with me. 

 

Thank you for that. I wasn't sure it would be helpful but decided to err on the side of basic. 

 

Time for some nutshells:

 

Orthodox believe that Adam and Eve fell from innocence when they chose to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. 'When you eat thereof you shall surely die.' And yep, sin and death were introduced into creation. Adam and Eve had to leave the garden and they began to live life as we now experience it, separation from God, the tendency toward sin, having to work, sickness, and eventual death. They also had babies and the babies grew up in this same experience, and so on until Christ.  

 

Roman Catholics, according to both my (Orthodox) catechesis and my RC friends in casual conversation and when directly asked, believe those same three first sentences. But then it takes a swerve off the Orthodox understanding. Adam and Eve, having now deliberately separated themselves from God, are somehow marked or 'stained' by their transgression. Humanity itself is in a state of something called sin. When they leave the garden, therefore, and begin having babies out in the world, their babies are necessarily also marked by sin. How is the sin transmitted? Through sex; therefore anyone who participates in sex is in collusion with sin, and from there the whole thing takes on a life of its own with the help of people like St. Augustine and you have the whole of Western civilisation affected by this one seemingly trivial difference.

 

There are more related thoughts, especially on how these views affect how we go about our sacramental life in the Church, and what we believe salvation looks like, but I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this first.

[1054]

Thank you for that. I wasn't sure it would be helpful but decided to err on the side of basic. 

 

Time for some nutshells:

 

Orthodox believe that Adam and Eve fell from innocence when they chose to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. 'When you eat thereof you shall surely die.' And yep, sin and death were introduced into creation. Adam and Eve had to leave the garden and they began to live life as we now experience it, separation from God, the tendency toward sin, having to work, sickness, and eventual death. They also had babies and the babies grew up in this same experience, and so on until Christ.  

 

Roman Catholics, according to both my (Orthodox) catechesis and my RC friends in casual conversation and when directly asked, believe those same three first sentences. But then it takes a swerve off the Orthodox understanding. Adam and Eve, having now deliberately separated themselves from God, are somehow marked or 'stained' by their transgression. Humanity itself is in a state of something called sin. When they leave the garden, therefore, and begin having babies out in the world, their babies are necessarily also marked by sin. How is the sin transmitted? Through sex; therefore anyone who participates in sex is in collusion with sin, and from there the whole thing takes on a life of its own with the help of people like St. Augustine and you have the whole of Western civilisation affected by this one seemingly trivial difference.

 

There are more related thoughts, especially on how these views affect how we go about our sacramental life in the Church, and what we believe salvation looks like, but I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this first.

I was under the impression that the idea that sin was transmitted through sex was first brought in (or at least widespread) by Saint Augustine.  Whether or not it has ever been an official teaching of the Catholic Church I do not know.  Without doubt it has greatly influenced Western thought.  It may be worth noting that with time Saint Augustine softened many of his views. 

Years ago I read Father Seraphim Rose's work, "The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church".  Father Seraphim had a great love for Saint Augustine and I remember being hugely impressed by this book.  It seems it might be high time for me to revisit it...