Religious Sisters Disagreeing With The Church

[Blue.Rose]

I've was reading some newspaper articles on Religious Vocations from my country and the articles were discussing the decline of women entering into Religious Life. I won't name the order, but one of the head Sisters from a community said the church should let women become priests and get married and this will solve the "nun shortage" problem.
Another order, is pushing one of its deceased members to be made a Saint even though this Sister used to support women becoming priests and even acted as a priest performing mass herself.
This upsets me. These are lead communities here in my country and the Sisters don't support the teachings.

I'm not sure why someone would enter into Religious life if they disagreed with the church.
As someone who is young and hoping to be a Sister one day I promise to stand by our Church teachings.

Is this common in other countries for Religious sisters to be 'liberal?'

There's nothing I can really do but pray for these Sisters.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Blue.Rose

[beatitude]

Religious sisters are like anybody else. If sisters could carry out cruel abuse of children, then we shouldn't be too surprised that other sisters can depart from Catholic teaching in other respects. There is a risk that we put nuns and sisters on a pedestal and expect them to be so much holier and more faithful than everybody else, but this is not the case - the same problems exist in convents and monasteries as exist in the rest of the church. The best we can do is to be aware of this, to be humble, and to pray not just for sisters and brothers in the religious life but also for our own fidelity. Also, remember that even Peter was disloyal, not once but three times, and our church was founded on him. :) Don't lose heart over it.

[AccountDeleted]

Please don't let this turn into some kind of thread about liberal vs trad nuns here in VS. :( The Vatican can take care of things through Visitations and monitoring on their own.We don't need to criticize religious sisters here in VS-please.

[Blue.Rose]

Nunsense, I have no intention of starting a liberal vs traditional thread.
I am just worried that this will be the norm for religious communities where I live, which worries me.

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense, I have no intention of starting a liberal vs traditional thread.
I am just worried that this will be the norm for religious communities where I live, which worries me.

 

 

Since you don't have to enter any community that disagrees with the teachings of the Church then I'm not sure what your worry is? Even Australia has many good and faithful communities to choose from.

 

Newspaper articles are not the best place to get information about religious communities anyway. If you have an interest in one of the communities the article mentioned but are worried about their fidelity - then contact them directly- or choose another community that does not worry you -- simple!

 

Otherwise, just pray for all religious communities and for the Church.

[Blue.Rose]

Yes, thank you .

[cmaD2006]

After some thought ... leaving this open for now.  I do ask the following:

 

a) to watch any discussion ... don't let it degenerate into a full fledged (mean spirited) debate

b) please -- respect all communities involved, and do not post actual community names especially when discussing a community in a negative light.  If you can refrain from revealing the country -- even better.  Remember -- while a community has its recognition from Rome or a Diocese, they are legit. 

 

Everyone ... if there is a post that is questionable please hit the report button and PM me.  Note that my mailbox is sort of full (will try to resolve that tonight).  I have space for one/two PMs.

 

I do hope this thread can stay civil enough to stay open :).  So far it's ok.

[chrysostom]

I've was reading some newspaper articles on Religious Vocations from my country and the articles were discussing the decline of women entering into Religious Life.

 

I think that says it all. Media organizations are NEVER interested in Catholic orthodoxy and skew reporting about Catholicism to whatever they think can support their post-Christian worldview.  They are much more likely to interview a Catholic (lay, religious, or priest) who expresses dissent than a Catholic who says something boring and non-progressive like "I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches because it is the body of Christ."  I rarely read media stories about Catholicism anymore because it's just so frustrating to see Church teaching attacked at every opportunity.

 

Basically, media stories like this will NOT give you an accurate representation of the state of religious life in your country. There are many faithful souls out there.  As for the communities whose leadership really does express dissent...as grumpy a Catholic as I can be I realize that I am not in a position to do anything but pray and watch out for my own soul.  :)

[Sponsa-Christi]

One thought I have here: sometimes I've noticed some older religious Sisters "dissent" more or less in good faith. I.e., they might say things that aren't quite in accord with Church teaching (like: "Oh, wouldn't it be great if Pope Francis allowed women priests!" or "Well, some theologians say that animals go to heaven, too!") not because they really intend to be disobedient, but because this is a reflection of the times in which they were formed. A lot of times, such Sisters are often very holy in other ways.

 

Obviously, I would not recommend that someone join a religious community which was obstinate in deliberate and grave dissent from Church teaching. But at the same time, I think we should also be charitable in our judgement towards non-theologian Sisters who might be innocently mistaken on some points.

[salveregina10]

I would also like to support what has been said.  No congregation of Sisters reaches the depiction in the book of Acts - being of one heart and mind all the time.  Each Sister is unique, has a unique set of life experiences and convictions.  It is sad when candidates discount a community because of one comment that differs from their own ideas.  In my own community there is a range of views, but all of us love the Church and our call to serve the Church and the world as missionaries.  That is our charism, and that is what matters.  

 

For my discernment, the essential question was, is the community seeking God together?  Then later, asking if they are healthy, if they have joy, integrity, and have a high quality of community life.  It has to be a place where each member can thrive and be their best self - not one that forces each person to preach one message for the sake of exterior unity.  No community is perfect, and we only reach the fullness of life at the end.  Thus, I really appreciate those who said that we need to approach community and discernment with charity and mercy.  

[Anastasia13]

"Media organizations are NEVER interested in Catholic orthodoxy and skew reporting about Catholicism to whatever they think can support their post-Christian worldview. "

 

I could believe this. Except some Catholic media, they tend to be more Catholic than most other media.

[SNJM]

Dear Blue Rose,

 

You have received some excellent comments, especially (in my opinion) - but not only -  from Beatitude, Chrysostom, Sponsa-Christi and SalveRegina10.

 

I have little to add except this - please do not judge a community by one or two very vocal members. I can assure you that just like in a family, religious communities are connected in a spiritual and human manner and there are bound to be very human conflicts. Sometimes, just like a family, an individual will stray - inspired by a book, a friendship, an experience - whatever. This does not ONLY happen from one direction to the other. (Meaning it's not always a member that wakes up one day and decides women should be priests - however, as been mentioned, these women tend to get the most attention. There have been situations where a woman in community life decides - for whatever reason - that Vatican II was wrong and have gone that way - which is also in defiance of the Church.) 

 

What's most important in your discernment is to read about their foundation (foundress/founder) and how they currently live that charism today - have they accepted Vatican II? Are they respectful to the Holy Father and the current mandates from the Magisterium? Are they in good relationship with the Diocese and local Bishop?  If a community seems to be - at the actual leadership level - to not be in full communion with the Church, then you have  good (no, excellent!)  warning sign that this community will be dealt with by the local Bishop and eventually, Rome. That would be a situation you do not want to be in, so that would be a community you would not invest your heart and time in trying to enter - or even, understand. You have precious time on this earth to fulfill your call to holiness and this could end up being a huge distraction. 

 

Finally, as many of you know, once a Religious has made final or solemn vows, getting that person to leave the community is difficult, and sometimes, even with public support and excellent cause, it can take time. I just can't say it enough - please do not assume that one or two members speak for the whole community. 

 

I hope this helps you understand this issue a little bit better.

 

Rose

 

 

 

 

 

[Blue.Rose]

Thank you for the replies.

Do you think it's appropriate in discernment to ask communities if they follow teachings, or follow Rome (or however I should word it?)

[cmaD2006]

Do you think it's appropriate in discernment to ask communities if they follow teachings, or follow Rome (or however I should word it?)

 

Probably not.  You can figure it out by hanging out/visiting the sisters often.  Besides ... they may give you the politically correct answer, which is "of course."

 

Here's an example.  I was considering doing a volunteer year with one of the religious communities.  I stayed a weekend at the house where I would probably be volunteering at.  What made me decide against it was precisely the books/non-catholic thought that one of the sisters had (she was into either New Age or some sort of eastern non-catholic thought). 

 

I started clashing with her pretty quickly over theological differences ... and I then thought "um, I better not come here, I think I'll be fighting the entire time!!!!"

 

So -- that was a quick discernment that really didn't take any real effort at all.

[Sister Marie]

Thank you for the replies.

Do you think it's appropriate in discernment to ask communities if they follow teachings, or follow Rome (or however I should word it?)

 

I get what you are trying to ask by asking that question but I don't think it is a question that produces a lot of fruitful conversation for discernment.  Honestly, its too simple of a question for what you really want to know about the community.  

 

The first question you could ask is along those lines - "Are you a validly established community?  Are you a diocesan community or pontifical?"  Right away you know, if they are validly established and their Rules and Constitutions approved by the Church, they are with the Church.  That doesn't mean they don't have any problems - EVERY community has some problems because we aren't in Heaven yet - but that is the criteria for being a community in the Roman Catholic Church.  

 

After that you want to ask more open ended questions that give you a feel for their flavor as there are many valid ways to view things in the Church without being a "dissenter" or "heretic".  For example, you could ask, "How do you view the role of women in the Church, especially your own sisters?"  You are going to get a more honest, nuanced, and deeper answer than if you ask "Do you follow Rome (aka do you want women to be priests?)?"  The representative of the community could then express a little bit more about the community's viewpoint.  The sister could answer, "We believe that women need to be heard more in the Church and have a more prominent role in decision making."  That answer is completely in keeping with Catholic teaching and gives you more of an insight into the congregation and it doesn't mean they want women priests.  It also lets you get to know the community better and their experiences better.  You may not be called to a community that is engaged in the change that is happening in the church in this regard and that is fine, but that community wouldn't be going against Rome just because they believe that women should have more of a voice.  Another sister in another community might answer, "What do you mean the role of women?  We just follow what the Church says."  You have another valid answer to do some discernment with instead of yes and no answers that don't really give any insight into the spirit and thought of the community.

 

Other questions you might want to ask:

"How are you involved in promoting Catholic teaching about human sexuality?"

"Do your sisters discuss current events in the Church and in the world together?  If so, how are disagreements handled?"

"What style of obedience do you use?  Are sisters missioned or do they discern ministry with the community?"  

"What aspects of community life are essential for you?  How do you foster those factors?"  

"How is poverty lived in light of your community's apostolate?  Are there any struggles the community has with balancing ministry and educational needs while keeping poverty?"

"How do the sisters in your community pray?  Before the Blessed Sacrament?  On their own?  A mixture?  What are liturgies like in your Motherhouse?  How do the sisters celebrate liturgy in their local convents?"  

"What changes has your community made to update according to Vatican II?"  

"How do the sisters view the wearing of the habit?  Is there any disagreement about the habit?  Are there any instances where ministry needs trump the wearing of the habit or when the practice of wearing a habit is relaxed?" 

 

There are an infinite number more but I think this style of questioning will give you more insight than questions like "Do you wear a habit all the time?" or "Do your sisters pray in latin?" or "Do all your sisters live in a convent all the time?"  Yes or no questions don't give you a whole lot of information.  Keep it open-ended and really listen with your heart.  Rarely is life very black and white and all communities are doing their best to balance the needs of the members, the needs of the people they serve, and the practice of their own charism... not an easy task in our world today.  

 

I hope you find what you are seeking!