When Did Ad Orientem Stop Being The Norm?

[CountrySteve21]

Just as the title says. When/ how/ why did we stop with Ad Orientem Mass's?

Pax 

[Perigrina]

Here is a good article about it:http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2009/umlang_introtttl_aug09.asp

 

Already in the sixties, theologians of international renown criticized the sweeping triumph of the celebration versus populum. In addition to Jungmann and Bouyer, Joseph Ratzinger, then professor of theology at Tübingen and peritus at the Council, delivered a lecture at the Katholikentagof 1966 in Bamberg that was received with much attention. His observations have lost nothing of their relevance:

 

We can no longer deny that exaggerations and aberrations have crept in which are both annoying and unbecoming. Must every Mass, for instance, be celebrated facing the people? Is it so absolutely important to be able to look the priest in the face, or might it not be often very salutary to reflect that he also is a Christian and that he has every reason to turn to God with all his fellow-Christians of the congregation and to say together with them 'Our Father'? [16]

 

The German liturgist Balthasar Fischer concedes that the turning of the celebrant towards the people for the entire celebration of the Mass was never officially introduced or prescribed by the new liturgical legislation. In post-conciliar documents it was merely declared possible. In view of this, however, the fact that the celebration versus populum has become the dominant practice of the Latin Church shows the astounding extent to which "the active role of the people in the celebration of the Eucharist" has been realized; for Fischer this is indeed the fundamental issue of the liturgical reform after Vatican II. [17] 

 

Basically it was a fad that became popular after Vatican II even though it was never taught.  

[Credo in Deum]

The End.

[mortify ii]

Just as the title says. When/ how/ why did we stop with Ad Orientem Mass's?

Pax 

 

When we decided to create an ecumenical mass under the aegis of Protestant theologians

 

 

Don't worry, Bugnini told us they were just observing... 

[truthfinder]

This really depended on locale - some places are have said to been doing this already in the 1950s. Some switched right away at the council, and others switched in 1969 with the new English missal while others held on a little longer into the 1970s. 

[marigold]

Does anyone have any thoughts about Church membership numbers viz. the changes during/since V2? The "sweeping triumph of the versus populum" comment gave me the idea, as I'd previously read that while V2 is sometimes portrayed as this big innovation on the part of the hierarchy (and undoubtedly it did start from the top down) the Catholic people overwhelmingly went along with it.

But I've also read that the changes from V2 are what facilitated (or even caused) big drops in numbers of mass-attending Catholics. And I've ALSO read that membership was on a downward trend throughout the entire 20th century anyway.

What to believe? Are they all partly true? Does someone have a comment on this?

[Credo in Deum]

Does anyone have any thoughts about Church membership numbers viz. the changes during/since V2? The "sweeping triumph of the versus populum" comment gave me the idea, as I'd previously read that while V2 is sometimes portrayed as this big innovation on the part of the hierarchy (and undoubtedly it did start from the top down) the Catholic people overwhelmingly went along with it.

But I've also read that the changes from V2 are what facilitated (or even caused) big drops in numbers of mass-attending Catholics. And I've ALSO read that membership was on a downward trend throughout the entire 20th century anyway.

What to believe? Are they all partly true? Does someone have a comment on this?

I personally believe the same sin which caused the fall of our first parents is the same one which is the source of the fall in mass-attending Catholics today. The major fall of our first parents is one of pride. This sin is usually attributed to their disobedience, but I believe it goes further than that. The temptation the serpent gave Eve was one which promised that she would know (understand) good and evil as God knows them. The temptation was to remove the mystery. To know as God knows and thus become gods, but this never works they way we think it will, and the means which we employ to try and understand something as God understands it always leads to a death of some kind.

Yet, I believe once Catholics start embracing and appreciating the Mystery of God in the Sacrifice of the Mass, we will drop the need for novelties and have a desire for mysteries. We will appreciate the practices which restore the sense of mystery back to the liturgy, and we will be humble and let God be God and us be His creatures. We will worship as God wants to be worshiped and not how we want to worship Him. We will want to understand God as He wants us to understand Him, instead of trying to implement ways to try and bring Him down to our level.

One day we will appreciate His words; "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts!"

[Perigrina]

Does anyone have any thoughts about Church membership numbers viz. the changes during/since V2? The "sweeping triumph of the versus populum" comment gave me the idea, as I'd previously read that while V2 is sometimes portrayed as this big innovation on the part of the hierarchy (and undoubtedly it did start from the top down) the Catholic people overwhelmingly went along with it.

But I've also read that the changes from V2 are what facilitated (or even caused) big drops in numbers of mass-attending Catholics. And I've ALSO read that membership was on a downward trend throughout the entire 20th century anyway.

What to believe? Are they all partly true? Does someone have a comment on this?

 

Many other religions and other kinds of Christians had big drops in numbers over the same time period and none of them had Vatican II.  So I doubt the Council was the main cause of the decrease in numbers.  I have heard anecdotes about people who left because of the changes (some of which were not even taught by the Council) so this was part of it but I suspect the drop would have happened anyhow.

 

We live in a secular culture that is hostile to belief, to authority and to mystery.  We have means of communication that inundate people with the values of the culture virtually non-stop.  We would be facing serious problems even if Vatican II had never happened.

[Fidei Defensor]

I personally believe the same sin which caused the fall of our first parents is the same one which is the source of the fall in mass-attending Catholics today. The major fall of our first parents is one of pride. This sin is usually attributed to their disobedience, but I believe it goes further than that. The temptation the serpent gave Eve was one which promised that she would know (understand) good and evil as God knows them. The temptation was to remove the mystery. To know as God knows and thus become gods, but this never works they way we think it will, and the means which we employ to try and understand something as God understands it always leads to a death of some kind.

Yet, I believe once Catholics start embracing and appreciating the Mystery of God in the Sacrifice of the Mass, we will drop the need for novelties and have a desire for mysteries. We will appreciate the practices which restore the sense of mystery back to the liturgy, and we will be humble and let God be God and us be His creatures. We will worship as God wants to be worshiped and not how we want to worship Him. We will want to understand God as He wants us to understand Him, instead of trying to implement ways to try and bring Him down to our level.

One day we will appreciate His words; "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts!"

Instead of announcements or silly greetings before Mass, I earnestly believe the following prayer should be said instead, before the beginning of the Liturgy, as preparation and a reminder:
 

Almighty and everlasting God, behold I come to the Sacrament of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: I come as one infirm to the physician of life, as one unclean to the fountain of mercy, as one blind to the light of everlasting brightness, as one poor and needy to the Lord of heaven and earth. Therefore I implore the abundance of Thy measureless bounty that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to heal my infirmity, wash my uncleanness, enlighten my blindness, enrich my poverty and clothe my nakedness, that I may receive the Bread of Angels, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, with such reverence and humility, with such sorrow and devotion, with such purity and faith, with such purpose and intention as may be profitable to my soul’s salvation. Grant unto me, I pray, the grace of receiving not only the Sacrament of our Lord’s Body and Blood, but also the grace and power of the Sacrament. O most gracious God, grant me so to receive the Body of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, which He took from the Virgin Mary, as to merit to be incorporated into His mystical Body, and to be numbered amongst His members. O most loving Father, give me grace to behold forever Thy beloved Son with His face at last unveiled, whom I now purpose to receive under the sacramental veil here below. Amen.

[Perigrina]

I keep this prayer in my purse and often pray it before Mass.

[Credo in Deum]

Instead of announcements or silly greetings before Mass, I earnestly believe the following prayer should be said instead, before the beginning of the Liturgy, as preparation and a reminder:

Almighty and everlasting God, behold I come to the Sacrament of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: I come as one infirm to the physician of life, as one unclean to the fountain of mercy, as one blind to the light of everlasting brightness, as one poor and needy to the Lord of heaven and earth. Therefore I implore the abundance of Thy measureless bounty that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to heal my infirmity, wash my uncleanness, enlighten my blindness, enrich my poverty and clothe my nakedness, that I may receive the Bread of Angels, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, with such reverence and humility, with such sorrow and devotion, with such purity and faith, with such purpose and intention as may be profitable to my soul’s salvation. Grant unto me, I pray, the grace of receiving not only the Sacrament of our Lord’s Body and Blood, but also the grace and power of the Sacrament. O most gracious God, grant me so to receive the Body of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, which He took from the Virgin Mary, as to merit to be incorporated into His mystical Body, and to be numbered amongst His members. O most loving Father, give me grace to behold forever Thy beloved Son with His face at last unveiled, whom I now purpose to receive under the sacramental veil here below. Amen.

I think this would be a great prayer. It is one of a couple prayers listed in my St. Andrews Missal in the section, Prayers Before Mass. Edited July 2, 2014 by Credo in Deum