Perigrina Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Somebody used the expression "spirit of Vatican II" in a positive way the other day and I found it jarring. To me the phrase has a negative meaning. This got me wondering what this phrase means to other people. What do you think when you come across the phrase "spirit of Vatican II"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 like you experienced, it would depend on the context... most words do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Somebody used the expression "spirit of Vatican II" in a positive way the other day and I found it jarring. To me the phrase has a negative meaning. This got me wondering what this phrase means to other people. What do you think when you come across the phrase "spirit of Vatican II"? Perhaps you could explain what kind of negative meaning the phrase has for you? This sounds pretty positive to me: On 25 July 1967, pope Paul VI says in a sermon to the Catholics of Istanbul at the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit:The recent Vatican Council reminded us that this progress is based first of all on the renovation of the Church and on the conversion of the heart. This means that you will contribute to this progress toward unity in the measure in which you enter into the spirit of the council. An effort is demanded from each of us to revise our customary ways of thinking and acting to bring them more in conformity with the Gospel and the demands of a true Christian Brotherhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The term "spirit of Vatican II" has often been used to pervert and or twist the texts of Vatican II. As Pope Benedict XVI explained in an address to the Roman Curia Thursday, 22 December 2005 The hermeneutic of discontinuity risks ending in a split between the pre-conciliar Church and the post-conciliar Church. It asserts that the texts of the Council as such do not yet express the true spirit of the Council. It claims that they are the result of compromises in which, to reach unanimity, it was found necessary to keep and reconfirm many old things that are now pointless. However, the true spirit of the Council is not to be found in these compromises but instead in the impulses toward the new that are contained in the texts. These innovations alone were supposed to represent the true spirit of the Council, and starting from and in conformity with them, it would be possible to move ahead. Precisely because the texts would only imperfectly reflect the true spirit of the Council and its newness, it would be necessary to go courageously beyond the texts and make room for the newness in which the Council's deepest intention would be expressed, even if it were still vague. In a word: it would be necessary not to follow the texts of the Council but its spirit. In this way, obviously, a vast margin was left open for the question on how this spirit should subsequently be defined and room was consequently made for every whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 "spirit of Vatican II" is for many a code word for what they feel is church sanctioned rupture from previous observance. people who approve of that sort of thing use the phrase in a positive way, people with less sanguine view use it derisively. this is all quite apart from the original meaning. I'm surprised if this is news to anybody here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Well, that would depend on if they're taking about the true spirit and intention of the council or using it in a derisive or even snarky way to talk about how people use the council as an opportunity to do whatever they want, or misinterpret the intentions of the council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 Perhaps you could explain what kind of negative meaning the phrase has for you? This sounds pretty positive to me: On 25 July 1967, pope Paul VI says in a sermon to the Catholics of Istanbul at the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit:The recent Vatican Council reminded us that this progress is based first of all on the renovation of the Church and on the conversion of the heart. This means that you will contribute to this progress toward unity in the measure in which you enter into the spirit of the council. An effort is demanded from each of us to revise our customary ways of thinking and acting to bring them more in conformity with the Gospel and the demands of a true Christian Brotherhood I'm sure that Pope Paul VI meant something good by the word. Unfortunately, I most often encounter it as a justification for practices that were not called for by the Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) I vote we claim it back. Why let agenda-driven malcontents hijack an expression that is part of the heritage left by the Council Fathers? Edited July 1, 2014 by Catherine Therese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 What do you think when you come across the phrase "spirit of Vatican II"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 KnightofChrist gave a quote from Pope Benedict that included: The hermeneutic of discontinuity risks ending in a split between the pre-conciliar Church and the post-conciliar Church. It asserts that the texts of the Council as such do not yet express the true spirit of the Council. It claims that they are the result of compromises in which, to reach unanimity, it was found necessary to keep and reconfirm many old things that are now pointless. However, the true spirit of the Council is not to be found in these compromises but instead in the impulses toward the new that are contained in the texts. I was at a talk recently where the speaker did exactly that. This woman is a theology professor who was brought in for a Lenten series of talks on Vatican II. She was up there telling people how the Council said things it did not say and when challenged she came up with the "well that was because of compromise and this is what it really meant" line. So this kind of thinking is still being spread, in spite of Pope Benedict so clearly identifying it as wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Perhaps you could explain what kind of negative meaning the phrase has for you? This sounds pretty positive to me: On 25 July 1967, pope Paul VI says in a sermon to the Catholics of Istanbul at the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit:The recent Vatican Council reminded us that this progress is based first of all on the renovation of the Church and on the conversion of the heart. This means that you will contribute to this progress toward unity in the measure in which you enter into the spirit of the council. An effort is demanded from each of us to revise our customary ways of thinking and acting to bring them more in conformity with the Gospel and the demands of a true Christian Brotherhood Pope Paul was in an interesting position in the time after the council. He himself did recognize that the Church was in crisis, and he spoke frequently about the need for renewal and greater faithfulness. Yet at the same time, literally simultaneously, he would claim that the "spirit of Vatican II" was an astounding success which was leading the Church to Her greatest renaissance. It seemed sometimes that Pope Paul was unable to understand (or perhaps unwilling) that the "Spirit" of the Council that was allowed to run unchecked was directly connected to the frightening state of the Church at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 I vote we claim it back. Why let agenda-driven malcontents hijack an expression that is part of the heritage left by the Council Fathers? What is the true spirit of Vatican II? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Who knows? IMO the true spirit of Vatican II has yet to be revealed and probably wont be until we have another council to clear up this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximillion Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I am afraid I hold a rather negative, if personal view. Sisters in my community used VII as an excuse to throw the baby out with the bath water in the 'spirit of renewal' they spouted about all the time in chapter. It took distance from them, and sadly from the community before I read the documents for myself in a spirit of humility and came to my own conclusions. It is my contention that those who want to will use anything to prop their own agenda, if it is VII then so be it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 well even the Devil himself can quote scripture for his purposes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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