Telling Girls They Are Pretty

[Perigrina]

So apparently it is bad to tell girls they are pretty because it discourages their interest in math and science.  At least that is what Huffpo says. And it must be right because they saw it in a TV commercial.   Simcha Fischer posts in her blog to disagree.  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2014/06/26/please-tell-your-daughter-shes-pretty/

 

Among other things, she says:

 

Is that what we’re doing when we do say, “You’re so pretty”? When girls hear, “You’re pretty,” does that automatically mean they can’t hear anything else we say? Not that I’ve noticed. Here is what I have noticed:

• When girls never hear their parents — especially their fathers — say that they are pretty, many of them will go find someone who will say it to them. And sometimes that turns out to be someone who wants to hurt or use them, and uses “pretty” as a hook.

• When girls get no attention for dressing prettily and looking nice, they find other ways of getting attention with the way they look. A lot of those girls whose entire style is super sexy sexy sex all the time? They’re just trying to be pretty, and no one has taught them to recognize any other form of appeal besides sexiness.

• If they want to be admired by men, but have been taught that that this desire is a sign of pettiness and lack of character, then many women will become so twisted inside that even marital sex is pure anxiety and guilt.

Why? Because women were made beautiful. They were designed that way. No, not every woman; no, not all the time; and no, not beauty above all other things. But the world is a machine, and one of its driving forces is the attraction between the sexes, where men delight in women and women delight in showing their beauty to men. This is not oppression; this is not sexism; this is not some manipulative societal construct — or at least it doesn’t have to be. It’s a gift from God that girls and women can cultivate and delight in beauty — the beauty around them, and the beauty in themselves. Yes, even their physical beauty. Yes, even from a very young age.

 

I am inclined to agree with Simcha.  For one thing, she is disagreeing with Huffpo.  Also it matches my personal experience.  I was told I was smart  far more than I was told I was pretty and this did not turn me into a well-adjusted scientist.   I had pretty much the problems Simcha predicts.  Also I became a housewife.

 

Actually I am very pleased about being housewife, but that makes me a failure as far as the "don't tell girls they are pretty" people are concerned.  But that is another story.

 

Edited June 29, 2014 by Perigrina

[Credo in Deum]

To combat this problem I tell them they're pretty as pi. Another favorite would be, cutie pi.

Pi. It truly is amazing.

[Perigrina]

To combat this problem I tell them they're pretty as pi. Another favorite would be, cutie pi.

Pi. It truly is amazing.

 

This is clearly the ideal solution.  We should tell girls they are pretty at the same time we encourage an interest in math.  We could also teach them to calculate how attractive they are with the formula; F= Gm₁m₂ / r^2.

 

Edited June 29, 2014 by Perigrina

[John Ryan]

I rather liked the Verizon Ad and thought that the blog response was simplistic. First of all, the Verizon Ad was not saying that we should not tell girls they are pretty. It was saying that parents should tell them they are pretty along with pretty good at other things. It is about moderation, yin and yang. The blog post implies that the Verizon ad is saying something else. Secondly, I disagree that beauty is monopolized by the female form. The ancient Greeks had Adonis and Aphrodite as the respect god and goddess of beauty. Much of Greek culture considered the male form the pinnacle of human beauty. Talk to all the teenage and college girls who have shirtless males as their computer wallpaper and I am sure they will tell you that males are also very beautiful. The one caveat I will attach is that through the process of psychosexual development, most females tend to cultivate a sense of bisexuality that does not tend to appear as often in male psychosexual development, so that women tend to think of other females as beautiful, whereas men do not tend to think of other males as beautiful.

[Perigrina]

The Verizon ad implied and the Huffpo piece stated that telling girls they are pretty discourages them from an interest in science.  There is no evidence whatsoever to support this premise.  The ad showed a girl growing up being discouraged whenever she showed interest in science. It is plausible enough to think that this could affect someone, but no reason to think that this is actually happening.  The only evidence is that more young girls express interest in math and science than actually major in those fields in university.  From that we are supposed to conclude that somebody (probably their parents) must have discouraged them. This is a totally illogical leap.

 

I suspect that ancient Greek culture's views on male beauty are connected to the acceptance of homosexual behaviour in that culture.  I am not sure that we can make any generalizations about male beauty from this.

[Deus te Amat]

[Sister Marie]

Ok, unpopular opinion alert! While I think it's crazy to suggest that it's wrong to tell girls that they are pretty, I don't think that's what the video suggested. I think it suggested that continuing to reinforce traditional ideas about women's place in society is counterproductive to increasing the number of women who continue in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields. There is an excessive focus in our society on the way women look and looks are treated often as the defining variable in a woman's worth. If you aren't beautiful, you don't matter and if you are beautiful, it's more important than your gifts, talents and passions. I am not saying that everyone thinks this way. Most people do not consciously think this but we are products of our society and these ideas slip in.

So in the ad, I see a girl being told that she is pretty, nothing wrong with being mom or dads "pretty girl." Then there are a series of incidents where staying clean and neat and girly seem to be more important that exploring a creek or observing sea creatures on the beach, still not wrong but should make us question what we are telling young women about what should be most important to them. Then, dad tells her to give the drill to her brother, this one definitely gives me pause. Finally, instead of signing up for the science fair she's putting lip gloss on. Yes, it's a simplified and one dimensional commercial but there is a glimmer of truth in it.

Full disclosure- I'm a middle school science teacher. I often observe the girls in my classes allowing the boys to take charge of experiments even when the girl is smarter and more capable, feigning disgust at things girls shouldn't like, pretending not to know the answers when working in groups with boys, and playing with their hair or clothes instead of working. I've actually heard them say "science and math are for boys." I remember believing the same thing when I was their age.

Now, I don't know any woman who doesn't appreciate being told that they look nice. However, professionally, I do question whether I am treated the same if I have been complimented on my looks by someone and I prefer not to be told that I am pretty or beautiful in those circumstances. I would much rather be thanked for my contribution to school or the parish.

We should be empowering young women with messages that they are intelligent, dedicated, hard working, kind, compassionate, generous, and capable so that they have the necessary foundation to choose to continue in their chosen fields of study or not to. I don't see anyone losing by consciously trying to curb the use of superficial descriptions of women and increase the use of more meaningful compliments. I certainly can't harm anyone!

[CrossCuT]

Blogs like this is why we need feminism.

[Not The Philosopher]

Blogs like this is why we need feminism.

 

Incidentally:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2014/04/23/yes-we-still-need-feminism/

[John Ryan]

The Verizon ad implied and the Huffpo piece stated that telling girls they are pretty discourages them from an interest in science.  There is no evidence whatsoever to support this premise.  The ad showed a girl growing up being discouraged whenever she showed interest in science. It is plausible enough to think that this could affect someone, but no reason to think that this is actually happening.  The only evidence is that more young girls express interest in math and science than actually major in those fields in university.  From that we are supposed to conclude that somebody (probably their parents) must have discouraged them. This is a totally illogical leap.

 

I suspect that ancient Greek culture's views on male beauty are connected to the acceptance of homosexual behaviour in that culture.  I am not sure that we can make any generalizations about male beauty from this.

 

The Verizon Ad is a critique of treating women as objects of beauty, as dolls. 

 

As you well known, I am comfortable with homosexuality, so I do not understand that as a criticism. However, I wonder if we had more confident female voices in the media, if we would understand concepts about beauty differently. Like I said, I know a bunch of girls who love it when boys where tight pants and whatnot. I find it very limiting to say that females were created to represent the form of beauty. 

[beatitude]

I agree with Sister Marie on this. I attended a boarding school throughout my teens (co-ed, but with separate boarding houses for boys and girls) and while I think it was a great school on the whole, I did notice that the girls were very preoccupied with their looks and that the 'pretty' girls were treated differently from those who weren't classed as pretty.

 

I also learnt to be preoccupied with how I looked there - although I didn't show it and I pretended that I didn't care. I pretended that I didn't care because I shared a room with three girls whom everybody said were incredibly good-looking. My roommate M in particular was often admiringly described by other girls as the prettiest girl in the boarding house. And then one day a friend from another room said to me ruefully, "I feel so sorry for you, having to share with three really pretty girls. I'd hate it." I wasn't offended, because I knew it was true: compared to those three I really was the ugly duckling. But her sympathy rankled. I didn't want people pitying me for not being pretty! It got worse when I was made girls' house captain in my final year - someone commented that she felt sorry for the male house captain, who must be so disappointed to have me as his co-captain when he could have had one of my three roommates. I'd been chosen for scholastic achievement and because I had spent a lot of time helping the younger students, but apparently being pretty would have made me a better candidate. That really hurt. Without realising it, I started to feel very sensitive over my appearance and convinced that I was ugly and that this made me unfit for things. It is only relatively recently that I've realised that while I am not a supermodel, there is nothing wrong with how I look.

 

What really hit me was that my roommate M - renowned for being the prettiest girl in the school - also struggled in this climate. She used to rely on me for help with homework, not because she was bad at it, but because she lacked confidence in herself academically. She was always shy about volunteering answers in class in case she got it wrong and people laughed. She lacked confidence in other respects too. Once when we were fifteen she hid behind me in a shop doorway because some older boys from our school were passing and she hadn't put makeup on. I thought that was mad and told her so, and a few days later she plunked herself down on my bed and said, "I wish you could teach me to be like you. You don't care about what anyone thinks." I was startled by that, because of course I did care - I'd just learnt to hide it.

 

Complimenting people on their appearance is not automatically a bad thing, but we have to remember that we live in a culture that places far too much emphasis on appearance - girls' appearance especially - and it can be damaging. I may have experienced this in a more extreme way, living in close proximity to seventy other girls, but that boarding house seemed to be a pretty accurate reflection of what I've seen elsewhere in the years since I graduated.

[Lilllabettt]

1. Being pretty is a good thing

2. Not everyone has to be pretty.

3. Cuz not being pretty is not the end of the world.

 

You know all that feel-good nonsense where girls are told "you are all beautiful" like in your own way, or whatever?

that whole movement just feeds the beauty-on-a-pedestal culture.   

 

same thing with all babies being "cute." No they're not. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Credo in Deum]

I'm going to start calling women ugly to help direct them to a life of science and mathematics.

[CrossCuT]

1. Being pretty is a good ​cultural thing

2. Not everyone has to be is pretty.

3. Cuz not being pretty is not the end of the world.

 

People put too much weight on being pretty. We are all pretty. Stop focusing on the exterior and focus on the interior. Who cares about being pretty if youre an ass hole on the inside. 

[Lilllabettt]

We are all pretty.

 

 

 

No. We are not.

 

And its not something to be ashamed of. It's great. I think people who look pretty should be congratulated on looking pretty. Even if its just because they were just "born" pretty.  It's a gift. Good for them. Some people are just born with tons of brains. Awesome. Or athletic ability. applause.  

 

The reason people put so much emphasis on being pretty is because not too long ago it didn't matter that much if a girl had brains, she needed to catch a husband or she'd be a social leper. And for that she needed looks. So it was very very important for her to be pretty.

 

Which is the REAL reason people insist that we are "all pretty." Because there is this deeply ingrained unconscious idea that "good gravy if you're not pretty you'll never catch a man and and you're going to die on the freakin prairie during the winter" or something.  So God forbid any girl is not pretty, you might as well execute her now.