Calling Oneself Catholic While Rejecting Church Teaching

[Fidei Defensor]

Well, yeah, if you really want to get technical... :)

 

 

Tardis - why does your thingy say 'Cordial Non-Catholic'?  From whence come your tag?

 

You seem orthodox enough to me.  Are you not baptized yet?

It's left over from when I was an atheist for a while.

[Fidei Defensor]

My point is that nobody should tell a person "You have been automatically excommunicated.  Canon Law says so."  It is too complicated for that..

I am in agreement with you. Like I said above, I'm not attempting to make a judgment, but illustrating a point for my argument.

[fides' Jack]

Let me pre-emptively apologize to anyone who may take offense at my insinuation that they are a heretic — i am not attempting to make a judgment upon them. Rather, I am constructing a logical argument using canon law and carrying the argument to its logical conclusion.  I love each and every one of you, no matter what!

 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread make that accusation - especially you.  My clarification (on your other remark) was simply an extension of your post, if you will.  I hope you didn't think I was saying you were making an accusation.

Edited June 27, 2014 by fides' Jack

[Benedictus]

I suppose I am referring first of all to sanctifying grace, and second to actual grace distributed through the Catholic Church. 

 

Then I would it can be lost, by our own choice until we turn back. But I think the sitaution has to be fairly drastic. It can be fall of traps if we look for signs in others based on our own criteria.  But actual grace continues.

[Fidei Defensor]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread make that accusation - especially you.  My clarification (on your other remark) was simply an extension of your post, if you will.  I hope you didn't think I was saying you were making an accusation.

No, I didn't think that. I just want to make sure it's clear, though, in case anyone else might think that from what i've said.

[Anomaly]

Exactly! The fact that it's taken us 32 pages to get to this conclusion, is well, sad.

I don't think so. It's a comlicated issue and indicative of a lack of understanding of Catholicism. It takes time to grow wiser, we are not born that way. It's a process to develop and put into effect what you sincerely believe.
If one has chosen to be Catholic, you are responsible to know and understand what is required which is why I'm an apostate and don't call myself Catholic, though it would be easier to fake it.

[Benedictus]

Could you please support your claim about Church teaching with some documentation.  I am interested is seeing how it is phrased exactly.  

 

I actually was born Jewish and became Catholic as an adult.  I am not considered a Jew in terms of identity.  For example, I would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel.  An atheist, born of a Jewish mother, however, would be allowed. At any rate, the Catholic and Jewish understandings of membership are very different and this is not a good analogy to use.  

 

It is still not clear to me what distinction you are making between Catholic and member of the Church. Do you think it is possible for a person to be Catholic while not being a member of the Church?

 

I noticed some documents have gone up, which seem to support some of my points. In terms of Jewish identity -  yes it is complicated these days, in part, due to the disagreements between various jewish denominations. Israel, as a country, has its own laws regarding things which aren't necessarily a mirror of a religious view. The exclusion of persons, for certain reasons as you noted, is a political reason. It's not necessarily a religious one. I don't see the problem with the analogy, in terms of the point I'm making. Once a child is born of a Jewish mother it's a Jew. Once a child is baptised, it's a Catholic. The sins and actions of the child later in life is a different discussion, maybe a more important one, but it doesn't necessarily wipe away their religious essence. In the same way a woman who is an Orthodox Jew could become a Muslim later in life. But, at least in theory, she is still a Jew. Of course, there are political and cultural issues that complicate this,  but the point is relevant.

At Baptism a child is sealed into the body of Christ -  this is shared among all Christians. This body idoesn't rely on assent to Catholic doctrine but a person baptised in the Catholic church also shares in this essence. The fact they are sealed within the Catholic church secures them an identity as a Catholic. As they grow in this context they are subject to the church and its direction.  They may fall into error, schism or be excommunicated. They may even be in mortal sin. But they retain their essence for their life. They don't need to be rebaptised, as an example, even if they physically leave the church for forty years. They simply need, in most cases, to go to confession. But during that forty years you could say they 'were not being a member of the church'. Similarly all the people in the line for confession are Catholics but, at least for a time, aren't in a full communion and or membership with her.
 

[Nihil Obstat]

Similarly all the people in the line for confession are Catholics but, at least for a time, aren't in a full communion and or membership with her.
 

Only if everyone in line for confession has mortal sin on their soul. :P

[Selah]

Let me pre-emptively apologize to anyone who may take offense at my insinuation that they are a heretic — i am not attempting to make a judgment upon them. Rather, I am constructing a logical argument using canon law and carrying the argument to its logical conclusion.  I love each and every one of you, no matter what!

 

^_^ This is how you do it :) 

[Perigrina]

I noticed some documents have gone up, which seem to support some of my points. In terms of Jewish identity -  yes it is complicated these days, in part, due to the disagreements between various jewish denominations. Israel, as a country, has its own laws regarding things which aren't necessarily a mirror of a religious view. The exclusion of persons, for certain reasons as you noted, is a political reason. It's not necessarily a religious one. I don't see the problem with the analogy, in terms of the point I'm making. Once a child is born of a Jewish mother it's a Jew. Once a child is baptised, it's a Catholic. The sins and actions of the child later in life is a different discussion, maybe a more important one, but it doesn't necessarily wipe away their religious essence. In the same way a woman who is an Orthodox Jew could become a Muslim later in life. But, at least in theory, she is still a Jew. Of course, there are political and cultural issues that complicate this,  but the point is relevant.

 

Israeli laws tend to reflect Orthodox Judaism.  There is a lot of disagreement among various kinds of Judaism, but most in my experience do not consider me a Jew.

 

The concept of the indelible mark of baptism is not really that close to Jewish concepts of identity.  This situation of my life means that I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.

[Benedictus]

Only if everyone in line for confession has mortal sin on their soul. :P

 

There's always exceptions. But I know the priests there are fairly clear on what needs to be said and not (direct to the any mortal sins, the rest in prayer), unless that's special advice for me as I have a line building behind me  :joecool:

[Nihil Obstat]

There's always exceptions. But I know the priests there are fairly clear on what needs to be said and not (direct to the any mortal sins, the rest in prayer), unless that's special advice for me as I have a line building behind me  :joecool:

Confessing venial sins is a laudable practice as long as it does not feed into scrupulosity. :like3: The graces of the confessional strengthen us in fighting temptations.

[Benedictus]

Israeli laws tend to reflect Orthodox Judaism.  There is a lot of disagreement among various kinds of Judaism, but most in my experience do not consider me a Jew.

 

The concept of the indelible mark of baptism is not really that close to Jewish concepts of identity.  This situation of my life means that I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.

 

Fair enough. I didn't pick the example because it had no relevance to my own experience. But I won't play who can trump who over it.
 

[Benedictus]

Confessing venial sins is a laudable practice as long as it does not feed into scrupulosity. :like3: The graces of the confessional strengthen us in fighting temptations.

 

Agreed, if you get the chance. I guess a less busy priest may have more patience. It's often a lottery who I'll get. Then I have to think how they like the confession. One will say: ''no, no, no, stop. Half that list is due to you simply being (fill the gap). Just think what your root sin is that causes all those other faults and give one or two examples so I understand''. Then I'll have anothe priest who will say: 'is that it? -  where's your list?' :hehe2:

[Nihil Obstat]

Agreed, if you get the chance. I guess a less busy priest may have more patience. It's often a lottery who I'll get. Then I have to think how they like the confession. One will say: ''no, no, no, stop. Half that list is due to you simply being (fill the gap). Just think what your root sin is that causes all those other faults and give one or two examples so I understand''. Then I'll have anothe priest who will say: 'is that it? -  where's your list?' :hehe2:

That is kind of lame. He should let you 'itemize' your sins if you want to, unless he has a feeling that it is actually due to scrupulosity.