Guest Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Perigrina I actually highly doubt you are in great danger of going to hell.... Edited June 27, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Not saying it's false humility or anything but........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 [mod]Please accept this award edit and warning.... ...you have truly earned it, SuperBlue Credo. That "trophy" was over the line, even for Debate Table. - BG[/mod] I would like to apologize to Superblue for my actions. I was angry and frustrated, but that is no excuse for what I did. I was extremely uncharitable and I am truly sorry. BG, thank you for the correction. I appreciate that act of charity and in the future I will just log-off when I get angry and frustrated with another member. Also to everyone else here on PM, I apologize for my actions. PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) It says that they stop being members of the Church. Could you please clarify what distinction you are making between "Catholic" and "member of the Church" because these terms are interchangeable for me. To me, and this is what I think the church teaches, if you are baptised you are a Catholic. This cannot be taken away from you. This is because it is a seal, a gift of Gods grace and truth on you. To deny this I think it's like saying you were baptised but now it's not real because you disagree with me. Judaism also holds to this view - if you are a Jew, then that's it. It doesn't matter if you later reject being a Jew, become an apostate, atheist or even a Catholic. They are still held to be Jews in terms of identity: who they are. It's not about assent on this point. The church, like Judaism, makes a distinction. Those who aren't observant and assent to the teaching, beliefs and laws aren't held in good standing. They are seen as not observant - but there is an openess that this could change. In this way I see the church applying this concept through stating there can be a discord in ones membership or adherence that brings them out of line with what should be. I don't think the church exercises this extreme action very often on its own side. It is a wound on Christ, through which we all share and suffer. On a day to day basis we are all sinners. We all break our relationship with the church and God on a second by second basis. We have a costant flux of death and resurrection. But we aren't all at the same spot with our crosses. I think God and the church realises that. That's why it is open to dialogue, it is open to other religions, it is open to transforming the world. It is open to change and transformation, even after death. Can we bring back the use of the phrase "cafeteria Catholic?" I think that's where we're heading with this discussion. If we aren't comfortable defining what it means to "be" Catholic, we have to then allow for the idea that there are categories of Catholics such as "cafeteria" Catholics who pick and choose what they want to believe, even though the Church calls for full assent. I don't think it's constructive. It's not also the way the church talks or expects us to talk. There is a difference between who we are and what we are. It's like comparing substance and essence. Edited June 27, 2014 by Benedictus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Benedictus, given your view of membership in the Church, what is your opinion on the effect of mortal sin on a person's relationship with God and the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Yea I'm in mortal sin right now am I not Catholic? Honestly curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Well, working in the Tribunal, anyone baptized as a Catholic is held to be one and required to use the canonical form when marrying for it to be valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Yea I'm in mortal sin right now am I not Catholic? Honestly curious. Mortal sin means that a person is not in a state of grace, but it is not the same as not being Catholic. This was mentioned in the passage from Mystici Corporis I quoted earlier: Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior's infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins. A Catholic who is in mortal sin (other than those which in themselves cut a person off fro the Church) is still a Catholic but in need of repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 The problem is, if I'm not allowed to point out that they aren't actually Catholic, what am I left with. No, I completely understand. I should be seeing children of God. May the Lord forgive me and open my heart. You are left with working on a relationship with them and saying lots of prayers. Saying your opinion of who they are not isn't helpful - saying what you think they could do to see your perspective, which may help them come to agree with you, is more likely to work. But it could also be the case they aren't ready yet or we aren't the right person to help them. Things may change for the better a few more steps down the line. We shouldn't be unrealistic and then scold people for not living to our personal expectations. If people come to a deeper sense of Jesus and the cross then all things are possible for them. Doctrines are important but people need to want to carry their own crosses. Nobody should use tactics that seek to make another person carry a cross that they don't happily accept for themselves, Even then it should be carried by one who acts out of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Well, working in the Tribunal, anyone baptized as a Catholic is held to be one and required to use the canonical form when marrying for it to be valid. This is the juridical meaning of Catholic. Don't you thing that the theological meaning is the equivalent of "member of the Church"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 *snip* Thanks man, I appreciate it. So far everyone who has actually gotten a warning in this thread has apologized; which while not something that's usually as public as what you posted, is not the norm. I think that shows just how much everyone here on both sides of the issue of what it means to be Catholic, by Church or personal definition, has a good heart. (My own apologies for the snarkiness in the edit, I should've just said "content removed".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Being considered a Catholic, as far as I understand it, involves three pillars: Faith (Believing in what the Church holds as true), Governance (Submission to the authority of your legitimate pastors), and Sacraments (Getting baptized/confirmed etc.) Naturally, only God can judge the state of an individual's soul, but these are externally verifiable things that act as a good heuristic for figuring out whether someone is fully a member of the Church. If any one of them is seriously lacking, then while it may be the case that they are still Catholic in a minimal sacramental or juridical sense, it does call into question whether they can be considered so in the full theological/ecclesial sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Get out of town someone actually figured it out. If I could give ya a billion props I would. But hey don't you dare tell the enlightend ones here this, they might have to turn around an investigate you and make sure your views are acceptable. but go easy on them, they are really just defending church teaching, they really are not judging anyone ,lol nooo not even remotely close. Note that this passage is about condemning people. We're supposed to judge actions. That's why I can in good conscience say that people who rob banks are in the wrong, and that Catholics who are heterodox are wrong. I'm not saying they're going to hell, but I am saying what they believe is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 To me, and this is what I think the church teaches, if you are baptised you are a Catholic. This cannot be taken away from you. This is because it is a seal, a gift of Gods grace and truth on you. To deny this I think it's like saying you were baptised but now it's not real because you disagree with me. Judaism also holds to this view - if you are a Jew, then that's it. It doesn't matter if you later reject being a Jew, become an apostate, atheist or even a Catholic. They are still held to be Jews in terms of identity: who they are. It's not about assent on this point. The church, like Judaism, makes a distinction. Those who aren't observant and assent to the teaching, beliefs and laws aren't held in good standing. They are seen as not observant - but there is an openess that this could change. In this way I see the church applying this concept through stating there can be a discord in ones membership or adherence that brings them out of line with what should be. I don't think the church exercises this extreme action very often on its own side. It is a wound on Christ, through which we all share and suffer. On a day to day basis we are all sinners. We all break our relationship with the church and God on a second by second basis. We have a costant flux of death and resurrection. But we aren't all at the same spot with our crosses. I think God and the church realises that. That's why it is open to dialogue, it is open to other religions, it is open to transforming the world. It is open to change and transformation, even after death. I don't think it's constructive. It's not also the way the church talks or expects us to talk. There is a difference between who we are and what we are. It's like comparing substance and essence. Could you please support your claim about Church teaching with some documentation. I am interested is seeing how it is phrased exactly. I actually was born Jewish and became Catholic as an adult. I am not considered a Jew in terms of identity. For example, I would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel. An atheist, born of a Jewish mother, however, would be allowed. At any rate, the Catholic and Jewish understandings of membership are very different and this is not a good analogy to use. It is still not clear to me what distinction you are making between Catholic and member of the Church. Do you think it is possible for a person to be Catholic while not being a member of the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Perigrina I actually highly doubt you are in great danger of going to hell.... I would be without the Grace of God. I have a real hope of salvation because of the love and mercy of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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