Calling Oneself Catholic While Rejecting Church Teaching

[Fidei Defensor]

Some quotes from the Catechism, because why not?
 

2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth." "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the "deposit" of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice." The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.

Edited June 25, 2014 by tardis ad astra

[Perigrina]

What's my point? Hopefully, those who call themselves Catholic will continue to obey a teaching, even if they don't agree with it, but even if they aren't obeying at the moment, there is nothing to say that they won't come into a fuller understanding at some point in the future. It's a bit like children who might disagree with their parents ruling but they still obey it. But then sometimes they don't obey, but that doesn't mean they don't want to be part of the family anymore, they just have this need to assert their independence or make a statement or whatever the problem is at the time. Patience and understanding on the part of the parents (authorities) can avoid a complete disintegration of relationships in the family.
 
And yet what I am reading (or at least interpreting from what I read) is that you (no 'you' in particular - just a literary 'you') are a good Catholic,and you believe everything the Church teaches and you do everything the Church says (and maybe even more than the Church requires, because you are so reverent and so good) and you think that everyone else should do so too. That's great. But unfortunately for you, not everybody else is as obedient or faithful or holy as you are, and this upsets you, and maybe you even feel that it is your duty to show everyone else the error of their ways, and to convince them through your rhetoric that they aren't really Catholics unless they can be equally as believing and obedient. Of course this is only for the good of their own soul and has nothing to do with focusing on the stick in another person's eye - and if they can't be convinced, well then, they just shouldn't even be allowed to refer to themselves as Catholics. The only answer of course, is 'tough love', so kick them out of the family until the come up to your standards again. It's for their own good after all, isn't it?
 
Sarcastic? Yes, but it's what it sounds like here to me. It reminds me of the parable of the Prodigal Son, from the Good Son's point of view -- "Why wasn't that bad boy kicked out of the family? Why did Dad welcome him home like that - especially since I've been so good and he's been so bad?" 

 

The important thing for me is to remember that we are all sinners (even those of us who would like to think of ourselves as faithful to all Church teachings) so maybe the secret lies in Jesus' words on the Cross about forgiving them for not knowing what they were doing. Sometimes a person just honestly doesn't realize that they are off track (if they are) but do we seriously have to play cops all the time about other people's opinions or behavior? Wouldn't a little compassion, understanding, acceptance (of the sinner, not the sin) and love, go a lot further towards changing someone's mind than trying to overwhelm them with the 'rightness' of your position through words and scolding? I know, I know, it is for their own good, but honestly, I wonder if this kind of judging of others has ever borne any real fruit. Most people learn better from example than from sermons.

 

I don't know if anybody here is trying to show people that they are not really Catholics.  I know that I am not.  What I am trying to show is that a belief in the teaching authority of the Church is not a peripheral, inconsequential doctrine that can be discarded with no great effect.  An attitude of "I can believe whatever I want and it doesn't matter" is attacking a central foundational belief that holds everything else together.

 

People might find it impossible to assent to certain teachings.  They might struggle to obey.  These are not the problems that concern me.  It is the apparent belief that it does not matter if they do not assent or do not obey.  It matters.  And people really need to know it matters.  Souls could be at stake.  I hope I am not scolding, but this idea is too important to leave alone and hope that people will figure it out some day.

 

I know I am a sinner.  I fall short every single day of my life.  But I acknowledge that I am a sinner and I need to change.  I don't say that it doesn't matter.

[CountrySteve21]

Its like the Crusades all over again in this thread  :crusader:  

 

First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians Chapter 13

[1] If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; [5] Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

[6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. [8] Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

[11] When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. [12] We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known. [13] And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Edited June 25, 2014 by CountrySteve21

[beatitude]

It has nothing to do with certainty.  It has to do with accepting the Church on the terms in which she presents herself.  Some teachings are infallible and/or central.  Others are not.  But the Church herself determines which are which.  

 

You are not simply disagreeing over some matters of sexuality.  You are disagreeing over the nature of Church authority and the nature of revelation.  You are rejecting the fundamental epistemological foundations of Catholicism.  This is serious enough to affect a person's communion with the One True Church of Christ.

 

Catechesis in many parishes is not brilliant and a lot of people don't even know Catholic teaching on many topics, or else they have a very muddied garbled version of it. But they recognise enough of Jesus and his love in the Church to be able to say that they are Catholic.

 

Others do things that they know are wrong according to our faith, but perhaps in their heart of hearts they recognise the truth even if they don't acknowledge it, and so they still call themselves Catholic too.

 

I don't think it helps to speculate, just to pray that God builds on what they already know and understand, in order to perfect their faith. The same prayer is needed for all of us.

[CountrySteve21]

Some quotes from the Catechism, because why not?
 

2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth." "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the "deposit" of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice." The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.

 

For being a "cordial non-Catholic" you seem very Catholic. Are you converting by any chance? :)

 

Pax 

[Fidei Defensor]

For being a "cordial non-Catholic" you seem very Catholic. Are you converting by any chance? :)

 

Pax 

I'm stuck with the label from my atheist days! I have returned to full communion with the Church and profess and believe everything she teaches!

[Perigrina]

Even if someone appears to want others to get 'angry and mean' with them, it could be because they are actually looking for acceptance and validation. I didn't read into FS's posts the same things that you did, so perhaps we could give him the benefit of the doubt here?It's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar, isn't it? As Catholics, heck, as Christians, we have an obligation to 'turn the other cheek' and to respond with love when we come across those who disagree with us. We all get angry and impatient when someone can't see our point of view, but FS has made some good points about coming here looking for some communication and feeling excluded. 

 

You say you started here two months ago.I have been on here 7 years and I can say there have been times when I have had to take a break due to hostility of some posters. We can all get alittle hot under the collar from time to time, but it doesn't hurt to try to treat each other (even non Catholics) with a soft word (it turneth away the old wrath) :)

 

Ms. Slippers has apparently left, so responding to her in love, or any other way, is not really an option. I replied to her "everybody is so mean to me" posts because I don't want anybody here kicking themselves for mistreating this poor innocent waif.  Ms. Slippers wrote one offensive post after another and we don't need to beat ourselves up if we got upset.  We might not have risen to the ideal of turning the other cheek, but it's a hard ideal to meet and we can try again next time.

 

I am all for soft words and treating each other with kindness.  I would do my best to be kind to Ms. Slippers if she returned.  But I am not going to buy the "everybody here is a big meanie" narrative.  I have been doing online discussions for over 20 years.  I have seen what real big meanies look like.  

[Credo in Deum]

For being a "cordial non-Catholic" you seem very Catholic. Are you converting by any chance? :)

 

Pax 

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/133614-dust-empty-your-messages/

[Perigrina]

Catechesis in many parishes is not brilliant and a lot of people don't even know Catholic teaching on many topics, or else they have a very muddied garbled version of it. But they recognise enough of Jesus and his love in the Church to be able to say that they are Catholic.

 

Others do things that they know are wrong according to our faith, but perhaps in their heart of hearts they recognise the truth even if they don't acknowledge it, and so they still call themselves Catholic too.

 

I don't think it helps to speculate, just to pray that God builds on what they already know and understand, in order to perfect their faith. The same prayer is needed for all of us.

 

From what I have heard and read, poor catechesis is indeed a widespread problem.  That is one reason why I feel that I have a duty to clearly present Catholic teaching when I encounter people who do not appear to understand it correctly.  Even if it means people accuse me of scolding and being judgmental.

[Nihil Obstat]

In the parish in which I grew up, catechesis was essentially nonexistent. Nearly everything I know about the faith came from personal initiative.

[CountrySteve21]

Congrats on coming back to the faith Tardis Ad Astra!

[AccountDeleted]

Ms. Slippers has apparently left, so responding to her in love, or any other way, is not really an option. I replied to her "everybody is so mean to me" posts because I don't want anybody here kicking themselves for mistreating this poor innocent waif.  Ms. Slippers wrote one offensive post after another and we don't need to beat ourselves up if we got upset.  We might not have risen to the ideal of turning the other cheek, but it's a hard ideal to meet and we can try again next time.

 

I am all for soft words and treating each other with kindness.  I would do my best to be kind to Ms. Slippers if she returned.  But I am not going to buy the "everybody here is a big meanie" narrative.  I have been doing online discussions for over 20 years.  I have seen what real big meanies look like.  

 

Responding to anyone with love is always an option - even if they appear to have left the conversation, they could be lurking and reading - and there is always an opportunity to regret harsh words and to feel regret for hurting someone's feelings, even through misunderstanding. 

 

Of course not everyone here is a big meanie, that is quite true, but  we here at Phatmass will always be held to a higher standard of Christian charity than secular online groups - or at least we should be. 

 

From what I have heard and read, poor catechesis is indeed a widespread problem.  That is one reason why I feel that I have a duty to clearly present Catholic teaching when I encounter people who do not appear to understand it correctly.  Even if it means people accuse me of scolding and being judgmental.

 

Although I can understand your desire to correct those who have been poorly catechized, perhaps there are less confrontational ways to do this? It comes back to example speaking louder than words. Using charity and kindness to correct will often convert someone more than simply pointing out errors. 

[Benedictus]

Nunsense- just read a few of the comments you've posted recently. Just wanted to express gratitude for your posts and what you said.  Prayers for your vocation explorations also :like2:

[Anomaly]

Responding to anyone with love is always an option - even if they appear to have left the conversation, they could be lurking and reading - and there is always an opportunity to regret harsh words and to feel regret for hurting someone's feelings, even through misunderstanding.

Of course not everyone here is a big meanie, that is quite true, but we here at Phatmass will always be held to a higher standard of Christian charity than secular online groups - or at least we should be.


Although I can understand your desire to correct those who have been poorly catechized, perhaps there are less confrontational ways to do this? It comes back to example speaking louder than words. Using charity and kindness to correct will often convert someone more than simply pointing out errors.

To be fair (IMHO), it is impossible to express constructive criticism without causing offense on the interwebs.

[Perigrina]

 

 

Responding to anyone with love is always an option - even if they appear to have left the conversation, they could be lurking and reading - and there is always an opportunity to regret harsh words and to feel regret for hurting someone's feelings, even through misunderstanding. 

 

Of course not everyone here is a big meanie, that is quite true, but  we here at Phatmass will always be held to a higher standard of Christian charity than secular online groups - or at least we should be. 

 

 

Although I can understand your desire to correct those who have been poorly catechized, perhaps there are less confrontational ways to do this? It comes back to example speaking louder than words. Using charity and kindness to correct will often convert someone more than simply pointing out errors. 

 

 

I refuse to pretend that Ms. Slippers is an innocent victim. I do not think it is harsh to say that anger was a natural reaction to her consistently offensive posts.  I will not regret it if she knows I posted that.  

 

Phatmass, as a whole, is more charitable than most places.  Of course, we should always be trying to improve, but Ms. Slippers's posts required advanced level cheek-turning.  We are not horrible people if we couldn't do it.

 

I have been doing my best to avoid being confrontational and to use charity and kindness.  If you believe that I have fallen short in these areas, you will need to give me more specific corrections.