Calling Oneself Catholic While Rejecting Church Teaching

[CatholicsAreKewl]

This is kind of besides the point. But lets say I believe what Shiites do about Karbala, the Imam, etc. But then I go and tell people I'm Sunni. This would be like me believing as Quakers do but telling people and insisting to myself that my religion is Catholic. See what I'm saying?

 

You've made the comparison much more interesting, but it's still a bit different. Catholicism is way more organized in that the Vatican and the Pope have the authority to decide on the criteria for being a Roman Catholic. Neither Sunnis nor Shi'ites have one agreed upon person/organization that can do that. As you've pointed out earlier, some Muslims consider Christians to be Muslims. Some Muslims consider Hindus to be people of the book who have the same privileges as Christians and Jews. There are even some Muslims who pray to Catholic saints. There are many ways to interpret religious texts and, without a central figure, who really has the authority to say whether one is or isn't Muslim? Do we just go by what most Muslims believe? Majority opinion doesn't matter in Catholicism. Why should it matter in Islam?

Edited June 24, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Benedictus]

Somehow your experience of the grace and saving love of God has not been enough to show you that there is something wrong with calling people nutjobs and robotic fundamentalists.  

 

I'll add it to my growing list of faults :notworthy:

[stevil]

Catholicism is not a religion in which people find their own path or one supports people in being wrong.

Does this mean that Catholicism has no faith in its people but expects its people to have complete faith in it(the church)?

[fides' Jack]

Credo - I want to say thanks for the Fulton Sheen quote.  I think I really needed to hear some of those words (and I admit I didn't read it all).

 

Lately I've been becoming more and more afraid to speak the truth because I don't want to drive people away from God, and while I have complete confidence in God, I have very little in myself to be able to say the right thing at the right time.  I've wondered what God might say to me, when I die, if I live the rest of my life in fear of speaking hard truths, and this helped me understand the position I must take.

 

pax

[Dr_Asik]

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being hypocrites, i.e. people who say they are one thing but do something else.  

Also because they devised a bunch of purity rules that meant that most people were impure just because their job implied touching blood or corpses, etc., so they basically made God inaccessible to almost everyone but themselves. Jesus presented God as a father who was near all his children.

 

But we digress.

 

[stevil]

Where did I say anything about not questioning anything? I have questions about the faith all the time. The difference is, if I were to come across something I questioned and I didn't believe the Church's answer for it, I wouldn't go parading around as a faithful Catholic, because I wouldn't be. You can't be faithful to the Church if you think the Church is wrong on a doctrinal matter. The Church is built on infallibility. By claiming it's wrong on doctrine, you're claiming it's not infallible, and thus the entire foundation of the Church falls apart. When the foundation falls apart, the Church does. It's simple logic.

This may ring true for you (all or nothing), but maybe some people see great value in belonging to the Catholic faith, see a close (but not exact) alignment with themselves and the church's values. Agreement on most of the big ticket items but some disagreements as well.
Maybe they are finding their way towards towing the Catholic line (to the letter) or maybe they never will, but they still associate and affiliate themselves because they see it as a "best fit" for themselves.

[Benedictus]

The cool thing about Catholicism is that you make it what you want it to be. So you don't believe the Son is consubstantial with the Father? Well no worries, you don't have to. It's a very diverse religion, with differing view points and a wide array of practices. So let's hold hands and sing praises for our new church and religion!

 

So you're saying that flexible view is held by the Catholic leadership? Last I checked the average Catholic has zero influence over what 'Catholicism' is. It's not liked anyone can change, force and control what's in the heads of other people in the pews, even if they wanted to do so. I mean do you suggest we have entrance tests at the church door? pew quizzes? Inquisition parties? This problem, as you seem to see it, will always exist to some extent.

[fides' Jack]

You are always welcome to pray for my soul.  :smile3:  The primary difference I have with the Church is that my conscience and intellect cannot abide the narrowly defined understanding of natural law in which each sex act has to be open to procreation. I am somewhat learned in philosophy, so I actually understand the Church's argument. I just cannot assent to it. If I did, I would be lying to both God and the Church, because there is not one inch of my soul that believes it. 

 

It is so interesting to me that almost every single time I hear the actual problems Catholics have with Church teaching, it is regarding sex.  And it always seems to be because people want to have more and more sex without consequences.  

 

Maybe that's the reason for the Theology of the Body.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by fides' Jack

[Perigrina]

Does this mean that Catholicism has no faith in its people but expects its people to have complete faith in it(the church)?

 

 

I'm sorry.  I would like to answer your question but it does not make sense to me.  I suspect that our assumptions are too different for communication to be possible.

[Lilllabettt]

You've made the comparison much more interesting, but it's still a bit different. Catholicism is way more organized in that the Vatican and the Pope have the authority to decide on the criteria for being a Roman Catholic. Neither Sunnis nor Shi'ites have one agreed upon person/organization that can do that. As you've pointed out earlier, some Muslims consider Christians to be Muslims. Some Muslims consider Hindus to be people of the book who have the same privileges as Christians and Jews. There are even some Muslims who pray to Catholic saints. There are many ways to interpret religious texts and, without a central figure, who really has the authority to say whether one is or isn't Muslim? Do we just go by what most Muslims believe? Majority opinion doesn't matter in Catholicism. Why should it matter in Islam?

 

 

There is no reason majority opinion "should" matter in Islam, it just does. Although it is not majority rule really but consensus - the ijma al ummah and the ijma al aimmah. This is their tradition about how to know what is true. And of course there are different ideas about whose agreement is necessary in forming the consensus, and of course if you have a Hidden Imam, that's extra confusing re:authority. But Muslims do have a ruler they use to measure.

 

Although you are correct that Catholicism is unique in the way it wields authority to parse truth from lie. (This incidentally is the major reason I initially decided Catholicism was true among all Christian religions.) The only religion I have found with similar structure is the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) -- in many respects a mirror image. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[fides' Jack]

So you're saying that flexible view is held by the Catholic leadership? Last I checked the average Catholic has zero influence over what 'Catholicism' is. It's not liked anyone can change, force and control what's in the heads of other people in the pews, even if they wanted to do so. I mean do you suggest we have entrance tests at the church door? pew quizzes? Inquisition parties? This problem, as you seem to see it, will always exist to some extent.

 

Popes have zero influence over that as well.  No pope can change what the Church believes.  He can only help explain it.

 

And that's at the heart of this whole debate.

[Lilllabettt]

It seems everything seems a bit basic to you! I haven't seen you type much of anything. You've been making weird posts making lame comparisons about traditions that don't match up. That's different to diversity within a tradition. A few posts up your claiming you studied Islam, and likethe idea that some Christians are basically Muslims, and vice versa. ,Sure the five pillars of Islam are a good basic foundation. But Islam holds their scriptures to be without error, the Genesis myth to be literal history, they deny evolution and advance a seven day creation. But they also reject Jesus as God, it's a blasphemy to them to suggest this. Not exactly natural bed fellows.

Nowhere in anything you said have you mentioned the grace and saving love of God. So, yeah, whatever, Why is it people who are converts, or gone back to find themselves on an RCIA course, sometimes end up sounding like nut jobs. It's like listening to robotic fundamentalists at times.
Why tell people what to believe and what doctrines they are failing on and so on. I'm a bit lost what is exactly expected to be acheived by acting in this way, aside from making people more turned off. Maybe that's the aim? Sure, Jesus spent his time sitting down teaching his disciples and the people doctrines to believe. Hang on ....

Maybe people should leave preaching and doctrine teaching to people with more training and a higher pay grade, for the love of God.

 

 

This thread is not about Islam so I'm not getting into how Christians can be Muslims and Muslims can be Christians. If you want to read something from the Catholic perspective about it I suggest Louis Massignon.  The point is that this is not the way that orthodox Islam understands itself. This is not the consensus of the ummah. So I will not be claiming I am a muslim any time soon. 

 

I'm not preaching any doctrine of any religion, actually. This is not a religious observance its a fundamental human one. A personal integrity thing. Do not claim to be something you are not. Period.

 

 

 

[Anomaly]

The Catholic Church does not teach that people should make up their own mind about things. If making up your own mind is important to you, why say you belong to a religion which says you are obliged to submit to its authority?

Amen sister. Crazy to think you should utilize the good sense God gave you. lol. People can convince themselves of anything. We need magic people to tell us what to do.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

There is no reason majority opinion "should" matter in Islam, it just does. 

 

You're absolutely right. Though that doesn't mean that unpopular beliefs are incorrect. Even after such consensus is reached, those judgements become open to interpretation depending on circumstance and understanding. There's even debate about whether the gates of ijtihad should remain closed or be opened.

 

 

 

Although it is not majority rule really but consensus - the ijma al ummah and the ijma al aimmah. This is their tradition about how to know what is true. And of course there are different ideas about whose agreement is necessary in forming the consensus, and of course if you have a Hidden Imam, that's extra confusing re:authority. But Muslims do have a ruler they use to measure.

The varying opinions about consensus make this untrue. We can't make a ruler unless there's a standardized unit of measurement. By some views, consensus is beaver dam near impossible to reach. By others, we only need agreement among a small group. 

 

 

 

 

Although you are correct that Catholicism is unique in the way it wields authority to parse truth from lie. (This incidentally is the major reason I initially decided Catholicism was true among all Christian religions.) The only religion I have found with similar structure is the Later Day Saints (Mormons) -- in many respects a mirror image.  

Interesting. I've heard this comparison before but haven't looked into it. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Lilllabettt]

Amen sister. Crazy to think you should utilize the good sense God gave you. lol. People can convince themselves of anything. We need magic people to tell us what to do.

 

 

Let's assume God exists, and that he's a personal God, and he sent his Son to earth etc. basically, Christianity is true. Would it be reasonable to think that this god would also establish some objective way for his people to know truth from lie? 

Or is it more rationale to think he would do all that and then leave and say "whatever man."