Solar Roadways!

[CrossCuT]

1. The idea is that we are using greener energy, we will be able to produce so much power from the solar energy that it would be extremely cost effective.

2. I dont see how having them on the sides would better...they would get more direct sunlight by being on the actual road unless Im misunderstanding you.

3. The panels are set up in a patch work pattern so that you can remove individual ones to replace bulbs if needed.

4. I have no doubt that they can add a color strip to the panels that would serve as dividers so you can see the lines during the day.

5. Snow is evil

[Anomaly]

1. Asphalt still seems much cheaper than the materials used in solar roadways. I think we could get more benefits by putting the solar panels on our houses instead.
2. But are we sure that the cost of using solar roadways to power the country will be offset by increased power generation? It's a good idea but do we actually know how much power we'll be getting out of this?
3. Good point. It all would depend on how study the roads are and whether the LEDs could get damaged in some way.
4. Yes, but we see them because they have a cover over them. The traffic lights without those covers are very hard to see. Paint seems like a better option imo.
5. You've never tried it? It's loads of fun.

1 Further research required to determine costs. Don't forget, asphalt includes petroleum. It is cheaper but studies of installation and maintenance over product life is required. There may be specific applications that cost differential is less. I'd still call it currently unproven but realistically feasible in theory.
2 I'd still call it currently unproven but realistically feasible in theory.
3 current LEDs are essentially a chip. Not easily damaged by vibration. System design would probably be modular to facilitate repair for any roadway
4 cover and color(Kelvin) in signals actually REDUCE the luminosity and viewability. current generation design is incredible. Paint (actually thermoplastic with glass beads dropped on top) have a short service life for view ability in low light situations. It's dependent solely on reflecting ambient light. Any system that generates light would be superior.
5. No snow in Tampa since 1977. Edited June 25, 2014 by Anomaly

[blazeingstar]

None of this solves the problem at all of hilly, rainy places.  Solar panels need sun, parts of America.  Buffalo NY has 4.4 days annually of cloud-free skies and well over 200 cloudy days.  North-facing hills sometimes have snow well into May or even June, even when it stops snowing in early May.

 

 

[Anomaly]

None of this solves the problem at all of hilly, rainy places. Solar panels need sun, parts of America. Buffalo NY has 4.4 days annually of cloud-free skies and well over 200 cloudy days. North-facing hills sometimes have snow well into May or even June, even when it stops snowing in early May.

not as big an issue as you think. Insolation rating (avg yearly) in Buffalo is 3.16 vs Atlanta 4.67. There would be consideration oh some specific terrain, but roads are naturally mild grade and well exposed.
I think the biggest hurdle is efficient power storage. If connected to the grid, it could replace some traditional power generation during daylight, but then roads would need power at night.

[blazeingstar]

not as big an issue as you think. Insolation rating (avg yearly) in Buffalo is 3.16 vs Atlanta 4.67. There would be consideration oh some specific terrain, but roads are naturally mild grade and well exposed.
I think the biggest hurdle is efficient power storage. If connected to the grid, it could replace some traditional power generation during daylight, but then roads would need power at night.

 

Which would probably burn more energy in the winter....as some days in the northeast we barley have 8 hours of light....er cloud

[arfink]

Well, the power consumption at night for illumination is going to be a tiny trickle, especially if they are using surface mount LEDs driven with a PWM signal to reduce current consumption. A small super-cap in each cell (a few pennies each in quantity) could do the job there overnight without any of the usual battery management issues.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

1. The idea is that we are using greener energy, we will be able to produce so much power from the solar energy that it would be extremely cost effective.
2. I dont see how having them on the sides would better...they would get more direct sunlight by being on the actual road unless Im misunderstanding you.
3. The panels are set up in a patch work pattern so that you can remove individual ones to replace bulbs if needed.
4. I have no doubt that they can add a color strip to the panels that would serve as dividers so you can see the lines during the day.
5. Snow is evil

1. It's a great idea. My concern is that the current costs of the panels, the glass, and the rewiring to make the solar panels work for houses and businesses would be way too costly at this time to make the benefits worth it. Of course, we can say it'd eventually pay off, but I'm wondering if we have the budget for it.

2. The position of the sun changes throughout the day. Flat panels won't be as good as solar panels that can change their positions.

3. Of course, but the bulbs are built into the design from my understanding, meaning that panel will need to be replaced. If that's the case, it'd be needlessly expensive to fix one bulb.

4. That's possible. I wonder how they would work it out.

5. I honestly doubt these panels would be useful for melting snow, especially if the snow is blocking the sunlight.

[CrossCuT]

I guess we could speculate on these things as long as we want to. I just want to see them given a shot and work out any bugs that may be present. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Well, the power consumption at night for illumination is going to be a tiny trickle, especially if they are using surface mount LEDs driven with a PWM signal to reduce current consumption. A small super-cap in each cell (a few pennies each in quantity) could do the job there overnight without any of the usual battery management issues.

Interesting point. I guess the question would come down to how much power the actual cells can generate under these conditions and where the power would be stored. Edited June 26, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I guess we could speculate on these things as long as we want to. I just want to see them given a shot and work out any bugs that may be present.

True. This isn't exactly the place solar roadways will go to for advice or constructive criticism. I'm more concerned by how much I like the idea. There's a lot of claims and speculation about solar roadways that seem too good to be true. Plus, if anything, debating about the specifics might make us more knowledgeable about the science. Edited June 26, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl

[arfink]

Interesting point. I guess the question would come down to how much power the actual cells can generate under these conditions and where the power would be stored.

 

I know you aren't into electronics, so let me spell this out:

 

LEDs are extremely low power consumption and extremely long life, even without a PWM (pulsed-width modulation) driver to further increase their efficiency. By extremely long life, I'm talking many decades of continuous run time. Some of these are rated in the hundreds of thousands or even millions of hours at their rated current consumption. You'll literally never have to replace an LED. Something else will surely be broken many years before the LED is the failure point.

 

Concerning storing power for the illumination, that's also a no-brainer. Solar LED walkway lights are already extremely common, and are so cheap you can go out and buy a set of 4 of them them at Home Depot for the cost of a big mac. Now, concerning power storage for the electrical grid, that's more tricky, but wouldn't need to be done on the cellular level, it could be done at the substation, needing only one storage cell for a whole swath of road.

Edited June 26, 2014 by arfink

[fides' Jack]

For those worried about snow - I don't see how it's an issue.  It doesn't take much to melt snow.  We're not talking about oven range temperatures, here.  Just getting something above melting point would be sufficient.  And the way they're designed they automatically let water drain.

 

Maybe it would be more of an issue for places that maintain -30 degree weather.  Even then, it would still be a better solution than the roads we have now.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I know you aren't into electronics, so let me spell this out:

 

LEDs are extremely low power consumption and extremely long life, even without a PWM (pulsed-width modulation) driver to further increase their efficiency. By extremely long life, I'm talking many decades of continuous run time. Some of these are rated in the hundreds of thousands or even millions of hours at their rated current consumption. You'll literally never have to replace an LED. Something else will surely be broken many years before the LED is the failure point.

 

Ah, before I continue, let me clarify that I wasn't attempting to argue against the efficiency and lifespan of LEDS in my previous post. I was intending to shift the topic to the solar panels specifically. The claim that solar roadways would be able to light up the LEDs and power the country still relies on how well these panels can store and generate energy. That being said, you did a good job of clarifying some of my misunderstandings. I found more related information below:
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/lifetime_white_leds.pdf

 

 

 

Concerning storing power for the illumination, that's also a no-brainer. Solar LED walkway lights are already extremely common, and are so cheap you can go out and buy a set of 4 of them them at Home Depot for the cost of a big mac. Now, concerning power storage for the electrical grid, that's more tricky, but wouldn't need to be done on the cellular level, it could be done at the substation, needing only one storage cell for a whole swath of road.

Interesting points. Such an application does seem to make more sense now.

Edited June 27, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl

[blazeingstar]

For those worried about snow - I don't see how it's an issue.  It doesn't take much to melt snow.  We're not talking about oven range temperatures, here.  Just getting something above melting point would be sufficient.  And the way they're designed they automatically let water drain.

 

Maybe it would be more of an issue for places that maintain -30 degree weather.  Even then, it would still be a better solution than the roads we have now.

 

You've never lived in New England/NY/Dakotas have you?  There's no way the roads could keep up with many of the squalls.

[arfink]

Well, there are credible sources which claim that this project, if attempted, could upgrade the infrastructure of every road in the US for something like 56 trillion dollars. So yes, the cost is so astronomical that attempting it on a country-wide scale would be vastly impractical.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/183130-solar-roadways-passes-1-4-million-in-crowdfunding-just-short-of-the-56-trillion-required-but-not-bad-for-a-crazy-idea

 

I still think it's a cool enough concept that they should try it out just for kicks, but I'm still more interested in developments in casting extremely deep parabolic mirrors for high efficiency solar collection as well as new vapor-deposition techniques which will vastly reduce the cost of the panels themselves.