mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Freedom of press. Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdB_NBXP2sE[/youtube] [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU[/youtube] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 "We must now consider briefly liberty of speech, and liberty of the press. It is hardly necessary to say that there can be no such right as this, if it be not used in moderation, and if it pass beyond the bounds and end of all true liberty. For right is a moral power which - as We have before said and must again and again repeat - it is absurd to suppose that nature has accorded indifferently to truth and falsehood, to justice and injustice. Men have a right freely and prudently to propagate throughout the State what things soever are true and honorable, so that as many as possible may possess them; but lying opinions, than which no mental plague is greater, and vices which corrupt the heart and moral life should be diligently repressed by public authority, lest they insidiously work the ruin of the State. The excesses of an unbridled intellect, which unfailingly end in the oppression of the untutored multitude, are no less rightly controlled by the authority of the law than are the injuries inflicted by violence upon the weak. And this all the more surely, because by far the greater part of the community is either absolutely unable, or able only with great difficulty, to escape from illusions and deceitful subtleties, especially such as flatter the passions. If unbridled license of speech and of writing be granted to all, nothing will remain sacred and inviolate; even the highest and truest mandates of natures, justly held to be the common and noblest heritage of the human race, will not be spared. Thus, truth being gradually obscured by darkness, pernicious and manifold error, as too often happens, will easily prevail. Thus, too, license will gain what liberty loses; for liberty will ever be more free and secure in proportion as license is kept in fuller restraint. In regard, however, to all matter of opinion which God leaves to man's free discussion, full liberty of thought and of speech is naturally within the right of everyone; for such liberty never leads men to suppress the truth, but often to discover it and make it known." Pope Leo XIII, Libertas, Ch 13 Common sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 "We must now consider briefly liberty of speech, and liberty of the press. It is hardly necessary to say that there can be no such right as this, if it be not used in moderation, and if it pass beyond the bounds and end of all true liberty. For right is a moral power which - as We have before said and must again and again repeat - it is absurd to suppose that nature has accorded indifferently to truth and falsehood, to justice and injustice. Men have a right freely and prudently to propagate throughout the State what things soever are true and honorable, so that as many as possible may possess them; but lying opinions, than which no mental plague is greater, and vices which corrupt the heart and moral life should be diligently repressed by public authority, lest they insidiously work the ruin of the State. The excesses of an unbridled intellect, which unfailingly end in the oppression of the untutored multitude, are no less rightly controlled by the authority of the law than are the injuries inflicted by violence upon the weak. And this all the more surely, because by far the greater part of the community is either absolutely unable, or able only with great difficulty, to escape from illusions and deceitful subtleties, especially such as flatter the passions. If unbridled license of speech and of writing be granted to all, nothing will remain sacred and inviolate; even the highest and truest mandates of natures, justly held to be the common and noblest heritage of the human race, will not be spared. Thus, truth being gradually obscured by darkness, pernicious and manifold error, as too often happens, will easily prevail. Thus, too, license will gain what liberty loses; for liberty will ever be more free and secure in proportion as license is kept in fuller restraint. In regard, however, to all matter of opinion which God leaves to man's free discussion, full liberty of thought and of speech is naturally within the right of everyone; for such liberty never leads men to suppress the truth, but often to discover it and make it known." Pope Leo XIII, Libertas, Ch 13 Common sense... I find it amazing that you don't see the irony of posting this right after your alarmist post about that other religion that's totes going to take over and oppress everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 I find it amazing that you don't see the irony of posting this right after your alarmist post about that other religion that's totes going to take over and oppress everybody. Wake up Hasan, I'm not a relativist. There is nothing wrong for a State aligned with the Church in suppressing error, and quite frankly I don't care if Muslims want to live according to their own laws in their native lands, the problem is they want to spread their error into traditionally Christian countries. Sadly, secularists are so enamored by a romantic view of the equality, liberty, and fraternity that they don't see the destruction ensuing in their own nations. Even they should see the threat that is wahabism and do what they can to limit it's proliferation by suppression publications, Mosques, and money flowing from Saudi to make all of this possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 As a consequence of the demographic shifts right-wing groups are growing. How democracy will end: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaQHjzVUkNs[/youtube] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) I was expecting the serious voice to say at the end "As believers, we call upon you to join the effort...and MAKE BABIES." Living in the UK I will say this -- the muslims have an identity as a group and conviction that I imagine Catholics used to have. They do a lot together as groups socially and have larger and stronger family structures. Their kids are being raised with parental authority with both parents in an intact marriage and are given a moral compass that a lot of secular kids aren't. If the muslims do end up being the majority in the future, the secular or lukewarm believers don't have anyone to blame but themselves. Don't get me started on the state of parish social life in the area I'm in. Catholics doing things together outside of Sunday mass? Pshhhhhhhhh.....more like shuffle in and shuffle out, politely shake each others hands and see you next Sunday. Edited June 22, 2014 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Living in the UK I will say this -- the muslims have an identity as a group and conviction that I imagine Catholics used to have. They do a lot together as groups socially and have larger and stronger family structures. Their kids are being raised with parental authority with both parents in an intact marriage and are given a moral compass that a lot of secular kids aren't. I have mentioned in the past that I used to practice the deen of Muhammad and can absolutely verify the strong sense of community. Muslims regard each other as brothers and sisters and any convert ("revert" in their terminology) is held with high esteem and is immediately welcomed. There is a very strong social apparatus that makes them very strong in faith, and the religion is taught very well. In comparison the Catholic community is a barren wasteland, I shutter to think what some converts to our religion have to go through. Furthermore, I think it is this social aspect that drives many to embrace Islam, especially disillusioned Christians and atheists on the fringe of our communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Demographic winter: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LA5xhXk_4U[/youtube] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVt0dnwZMCo[/youtube] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Asik Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Freedom of press. Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU[/youtube] What research is this based on? The Pew Forum states: In Europe as a whole, the Muslim share of the population is expected to grow by nearly one-third over the next 20 years, rising from 6% of the region’s inhabitants in 2010 to 8% in 2030. In absolute numbers, Europe’s Muslim population is projected to grow from 44.1 million in 2010 to 58.2 million in 2030. This is a far cry from that video's claim that France will be an islamic republic in 39 years. Not only that, but it's probably not legitimate to extrapolate current-day numbers so far in the future; fertility rates among 2nd and 3rd generation muslims are likely to diminish rapidly, as well as religious practice. Indeed: The growth of the global Muslim population, however, should not obscure another important demographic trend: the rate of growth among Muslims has been slowing in recent decades and is likely to continue to decline over the next 20 years, as the graph below shows. From 1990 to 2000, the Muslim population grew at an average annual rate of 2.3%. The growth rate dipped to 2.1% from 2000 to 2010, and it is projected to drop to 1.7% from 2010 to 2020 and 1.4% from 2020 to 2030 (or 1.5% annually over the 20-year period from 2010 to 2030, as previously noted). The declining growth rate is due primarily to falling fertility rates in many Muslim-majority countries, including such populous nations as Indonesia and Bangladesh. Fertility is dropping as more women in these countries obtain a secondary education, living standards rise and people move from rural areas to cities and towns. (See the Related Factors section for more details.) Not that I don't share your concern about the spread of Islam, but let's not paint an alarmist picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) What research is this based on? The Pew Forum states: In Europe as a whole, the Muslim share of the population is expected to grow by nearly one-third over the next 20 years, rising from 6% of the region’s inhabitants in 2010 to 8% in 2030. In absolute numbers, Europe’s Muslim population is projected to grow from 44.1 million in 2010 to 58.2 million in 2030. This is a far cry from that video's claim that France will be an islamic republic in 39 years. Not only that, but it's probably not legitimate to extrapolate current-day numbers so far in the future; fertility rates among 2nd and 3rd generation muslims are likely to diminish rapidly, as well as religious practice. Indeed: I agree some of the particulars of the statistics can be challenged but the principle is absolutely valid. The Muslim population is far outgrowing the native population: What these stats don't factor in is annual conversion rate to Islam. Some estimate about a fourth of Muslims in the United States are converts (if only we could attract that many!) So it's really not that farfetched to say that by 2050 Muslims will make up a very large portion of the population if not the majority. http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3770/the_islamic_future_of_britain Edited June 22, 2014 by mortify ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) "In the 2011 Census, Christianity was still the largest religious group in England and Wales with 33.2 million people (59% of the population). The second largest religious group was Islam with 2.7 million people (5% of the population). The proportion of people who reported that they did not have a religion reached 14.1 million people, a quarter of the population (25%). "Although the overall population of England and Wales grew by 3.7 million between 2001 and 2011 to reach 56.1 million, in 2011, there were 4.1 million fewer people who reported being Christian (from 72% to 59% of the population). By contrast, 1.2 million more people reported being Muslim (from 3% to 5%), and 6.4 million more people reported no religion (from 15% to 25%). "The new report, however, shows that the number of British Christians is actually falling at a far faster rate than previously thought. The earlier analysis of the statistics showed a roughly 15% decline in the number of Christians over the past decade, but the ONS found that this figure had been artificially influenced by the recent arrival of Christian immigrants from countries such as Nigeria and Poland. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3735/britain-islamic-future Edited June 22, 2014 by mortify ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Asik Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) What these stats don't factor in is annual conversion rate to Islam. Yes they do: This study also considered conversion to or from Islam. Because recent survey data do not indicate that conversion is having any clear impact on the size of Muslim populations, the report assumes that future conversions into Islam will roughly equal conversions away from Islam, either to other faiths or to no particular faith. (See discussion in the Conversion section.) I don't see how the numbers you showed can support the idea that by 2050 a "very large" portion or "majority" of the population of Europe will be muslim. As the study stated, the growth rate of Islam is decreasing, so there's no way that after a growth from 4.5% to 7.1% on a 20 year period, we'll then somehow jump to 40-50% in the next 20 year period. And in any case, it's not methodologically valid to extrapolate current-day trends so far in the future as a large number of unforeseen events can affect these demographic trends. Edited June 22, 2014 by Dr_Asik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Over my cold, dead American corpse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Wake up Hasan, I'm not a relativist. There is nothing wrong for a State aligned with the Church in suppressing error, and quite frankly I don't care if Muslims want to live according to their own laws in their native lands, the problem is they want to spread their error into traditionally Christian countries. Right. So you're every bit the totalitarian as a young man enamored with Saudi wahabism. You just do it in the name of a different imaginary friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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