Perigrina Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 No one is saying the Mass of Paul VI is wrong, nor is anyone saying it is invalid. As per the text it is a valid mass and can be said very reverently. If nothing is wrong with this Mass why do you keep saying it should be replaced with the Tridentine Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 It was codified four hundred years ago. It existed in its essential elements for far, far longer, and many elements, especially some Propers, are Patristic in origin. Most of these essential elements still exist in the OF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The OF is our liturgy and you are not trying to preserve it. Trying to convince people that there is something wrong with the Mass that the Church has adopted is harmful to individuals and the Church as a whole. I dare say you mean well, but it looks to me like what you are actually doing is creating division and confusion. Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just expressing my own opinion which may very well be wrong. As for preservation, the OF is facing nor risk of suppression or need to be preserved, the EF on the other hand is part of our patrimony, has faced fierce suppression, and needs my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Most of these essential elements still exist in the OF. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountrySteve21 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) If you don't see it then you don't see it. No one is saying the Mass of Paul VI is wrong, nor is anyone saying it is invalid. As per the text it is a valid mass and can be said very reverently. Then do enlighten my mind. I'm sure most of us can agree there is a crisis is the world. I've noticed some blame the times, some blame the Vatican II and the changes. I find these kind of trads (not saying you are one) just spew out these arguments without any solid evidence to their claims. To the Op though, thanks for the article, looks like a great book Edited June 20, 2014 by CountrySteve21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Then do enlighten my mind. I'm sure most of us can agree there is a crisis is the world. I've noticed some blame the times, some blame the Vatican II and the changes. I find these kind of trads (not saying you are one) just spew out these arguments without any solid evidence to their claims. Can't make you see what's in front of you brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just expressing my own opinion which may very well be wrong. As for preservation, the OF is facing nor risk of suppression or need to be preserved, the EF on the other hand is part of our patrimony, has faced fierce suppression, and needs my support. Your "support" turns people against it. You present the EF and OF as if they are in competition with each other. People who are attached to the OF are likely to feel threatened and annoyed by your constant digs at it. And those negative feelings can easily become associated with the Mass you are "defending". Your way of treating the OF is a big part of why the EF faces suppression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Can't make you see what's in front of you brother You cannot see how much harm you are doing. You should be more concerned with this than what anyone else sees or does not see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Your "support" turns people against it. You present the EF and OF as if they are in competition with each other. People who are attached to the OF are likely to feel threatened and annoyed by your constant digs at it. And those negative feelings can easily become associated with the Mass you are "defending". Your way of treating the OF is a big part of why the EF faces suppression. Well yes, there is a war going on but Trads are a very small minority. There are more non-Trad Catholics, both in terms of numbers and in terms of influence within the Church, that not only believe in this "competition" or rupture, but do everything they can to ensure the EF is stamped out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 You cannot see how much harm you are doing. You should be more concerned with this than what anyone else sees or does not see. I don't mind engaging in this conversation with you but I think you're being a little melodramatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Most of these essential elements still exist in the OF. Not the Propers though. Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Well yes, there is a war going on but Trads are a very small minority. There are more non-Trad Catholics, both in terms of numbers and in terms of influence within the Church, that not only believe in this "competition" or rupture, but do everything they can to ensure the EF is stamped out. If the people who are attached to the EF keep on talking about how current Church teaching contradicts that of the past and about how OF needs to be replaced by the Ef, of course people will want to stamp out the movement. If the EF is associated with people who keep criticizing the pope and the Church, with people who are negative and judgmental, of course non-trads will see it as a magnet for trouble-makers and want to get rid of it. There is no reason to make this into a competition or war. Catholics who attend both forms of Mass are brothers and sisters in faith. We are part of the same Church and we should be working to build up all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 If the people who are attached to the EF keep on talking about how current Church teaching contradicts that of the past and about how OF needs to be replaced by the Ef, of course people will want to stamp out the movement. If the EF is associated with people who keep criticizing the pope and the Church, with people who are negative and judgmental, of course non-trads will see it as a magnet for trouble-makers and want to get rid of it. There is no reason to make this into a competition or war. Catholics who attend both forms of Mass are brothers and sisters in faith. We are part of the same Church and we should be working to build up all of us. This. You can't keep simultaneously saying that the forms are at odds and that somehow the church has strayed, and then say that the OF is valid and "fine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Not the Propers though. Not really. I cannot claim that the OF is how I would have carried out the guidelines for reform set forth at Vatican II. But it is the Mass of the Church and it should be treated with respect, as should the people who are attached to that particular form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 I don't mind engaging in this conversation with you but I think you're being a little melodramatic I think that your posts and the attitude expressed in them are harmful to the Church. I get emotional about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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