Why Is There No Crucifix At The Altar Of Icksp?

[Maggyie]

What I said in my post is that the ICKSP altars with the very large statue of the Infant of Prague, is placed "above" their very small cross at the altar, is much larger than the ICKSP cross. The secular canon is shown raising the eucharist to the very large statue of the Infant of Prague, venerating the statue. ?

But Mr Davis, as I explained to you, that's NOT what the priest is doing in that picture. You do NOT venerate a statue OR a crucifix by raising the Eucharust up to it.

You appear to be very very confused about the Holy Mass.

[chrysostom]

I have not been surveying or policing the ICRSS, so I can't answer your question, nor can most of the people who responded on this thread, most likely.  In the traditional group whose Masses I frequent there haven't been any changes to speak of.  But I can think of many old altars in Europe - think especially of the Baroque style - whose largest icons/images/statues are not the crucifix, and indeed visually point to some other image although the crucifix is present.  So I can't understand how that could be an issue now.

 

In any case the priest raises the Body of Christ neither to the Infant of Prague nor the crucifix.  He raises the Host up to the Father.

 

This seems to be what you want the GIRM to say:  "There is to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, a cross clearly visible to the assembled people. There should be no other statue above the cross at the altar."  But the GIRM does not say that.

Edited June 16, 2014 by chrysostom

[pdavis]

Only the eucharist should be raised to the crucifix by a religious priest, or by a nonreligious secular canon, of what the crucifix represents, the suffering of Christ on the cross for our sins. The eucharist should not be raised to a statue, where the statue of the Infant of Prague is clearly much larger and placed above the cross at the altar by the ICKSP. Look at the altars of Catholic churchs, and at the altars in this thread by a previous poster. Those altars are correct, and do not have any statues above the cross or crucifix.

Edited June 16, 2014 by pdavis

[chrysostom]

Only the eucharist should be raised to the crucifix by a religious priest, or by a nonreligious secular canon, of what the crucifix represents, the suffering of Christ on the cross for our sins. The eucharist should not be raised to a statue, where the statue of the Infant of Prague is clearly much larger and placed above the cross at the altar by the ICKSP. Look at the altars of Catholic churchs, and at the altars in this thread by a previous poster. Those altars are correct, and do not have any statues above the cross or crucifix.

 

But I fail to find this requirement for "no other statues" in any liturgical law, including the one you quoted.  Otherwise you're saying this on your own authority.

[pdavis]

No, you are misinterpreting. I am noting what is in the GIRM # 308. I have NEVER seen a church that places a statue above a crucifix until ICKSP.

 

The eucharist should be raised only to the crucifix by a religious priest, or by a nonreligious secular canon, of what the crucifix represents, the suffering of Christ on the cross for our sins. The eucharist should not be raised to a statue, where the statue of the Infant of Prague is clearly much larger and placed above the cross at the altar by the ICKSP.

 

The altars on the attached link provided by the poster in this thread ITHINKJESUSISCOOL, are correct, and do not have any statues above the cross or crucifix:

 

http://www.katolskakyrkan.se/1/1.0.1.0/254/1/

[Maggyie]

Okay we're being trolled I think.

[Nihil Obstat]

I thought it was obvious, but I guess someone has to say it: the GIRM has precisely no relevance if we are talking about the traditional Mass.

[HisChildForever]

Only the eucharist should be raised to the crucifix by a religious priest, or by a nonreligious secular canon, of what the crucifix represents, the suffering of Christ on the cross for our sins. The eucharist should not be raised to a statue, where the statue of the Infant of Prague is clearly much larger and placed above the cross at the altar by the ICKSP. Look at the altars of Catholic churchs, and at the altars in this thread by a previous poster. Those altars are correct, and do not have any statues above the cross or crucifix.

 

Okay so let's say you're totally correct. Now what? I mean, what's the point of this thread? Just to complain?

[truthfinder]

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/victories-1b.jpg (sorry pic comes out really large if I embed it, so decided against that option).

 

 

This church has no Latin Mass, and clearly has a very large Mary and Child Jesus Statue.  The priest does not lift the Eucharist to the Crucifix or any statue.  I believe you have a thoroughly deficient understanding of what that elevation is.  Heck, it was not until the tenth or eleventh century that there even was an elevation. In this church, pictured, I highly doubt they say Mass ad orientem, so according to your line of argument, the Eucharist would be elevated to the congregants (although before the OF was implemented, they too would be guilty of the 'offence' of which you accuse the ICKSP).  

 

Remember, the crucifix is just as much a statue as is any other; its mandate for being present in the sanctuary is to remind us of the re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary.  I'm not sure under what other notion or theology you might be operating.  

Edited June 16, 2014 by truthfinder

[truthfinder]

Further, the elevation height, in many respects, comes down to the height of the priest. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by truthfinder

[brandelynmarie]

:popcorn:

[Nihil Obstat]

[reminiscere]

Firstly, pdavis, what you have written shows that you have absolutely no proper formation in the Sacred Liturgy - Extraordinary or Ordinary Forms.

 

1) You will never find any priest who thinks that he is consecrating/elevating the Blessed Sacrament "to" an altar crucifix or statue. The Elevation takes place simply for the adoration of the faithful. 

 

2) The GIRM has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the Extraordinary Form. The GIRM only governs the Ordinary Form. Period. Ever heard of the Ritus Servandus? Collectio rerum liturgicarum? Decisions of the Sacred Congregation of Rites? Enough said. 

 

3) There is no stipulation for the size of the altar crucifix, which may also be subsituted by any worthy image of the Crucified: sculpture, painting, print, drawing, stained glass window, etc. It may rest on the mensa, gradine, be placed on top of the tabernacle, or hang above the altar. 

 

4) There is no restriction on a statue or painting or stained glass window depicting Our Lord, Our Lady or any other saint above the altar, only that it may not rest directly on top of the tabernacle itself (only the altar crucifix, monstrance and I believe also relic of the True Cross may be directly on top of the tabernacle). These images may be larger or smaller than the image of the Crucified. 

 

5) Have you ever seen the high altar of the chapel of the Miraculous Icon at Jasna Góra (CzÄ™stochowa) where numerous saints including Pope John Paul II and Maximilian Kolbe offered Mass and the Pope Emeritus prayed as pope? I guess you know better than them. Cause you're the pope, much less ordained or actually studied the rubrics and history of the Sacred Liturgy like they all did... Have you ever seen the Chapel of Grace at Altötting where the Pope Emeritus also prayed as Pope? Zwiefalten Münster? The high altar of Our Lady of Victory in Lackawanna, New York? Thousands of other basilicas, cathedrals, churches and chapels throughout the universal Church? Again, enough said.

 

Study the Catechism, study the Liturgy, pray, stop trolling and shooting your mouth off. Because there are actually people here who know what they're talking about. 

[reminiscere]

P.S. Here are a few photos from Gricigliano, http://blog.messainlatino.it/2009/03/ordinazioni-diaconali-gricigliano.html. I guess if it's good enough for Cardinal Rodé to offer Mass and ordain there (as many other bishops and cardinals) it should be good enough for you. Pretty sure that altar Crucifix is conspicuous enough.

 

And just to be nice, the next time I go to Gricigiliano, I will say a prayer to the Holy Infant of Prague for your intentions. Ciao! 

[reminiscere]

As a final reply, if you've ever been to Gricigliano you'd notice that the statue of the Infant of Prague isn't very large at all, and may be even shorter than the altar crucifix.

 

Also, to answer your mistaken assumption from another thread, the real initials of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest are ICRSS (Latin is Institutum Christi Regis Summi Sacerdotis) in English it's misproperly written as ICKSP... where did you even get Infant of Prague out of that anyway?