Socrates Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I hope you weren't concerned about possibly coming off as arrogant or condescending. Neither was I. Personally, I think it's mighty big of Comrade John that he deigns to come down and explain his Big Ideas to us simple folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I hope you weren't concerned about possibly coming off as arrogant or condescending. Neither was I. Sorry. I have an M.A. in political philosophy, so when I am talking about social science, philosophy or theology, I tend to naturally use technical language. It is just the way I have been trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Personally, I think it's mighty big of Comrade John that he deigns to come down and explain his Big Ideas to us simple folk. I think we have an unfair attitude towards the social sciences and philosophy. Nobody would bat an eye if a physicist or chemist said anything of the sort. Yet, when I go through six years of studying philosophy and social science, I am arrogant for thinking I am learned in the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think we have an unfair attitude towards the social sciences and philosophy. Nobody would bat an eye if a physicist or chemist said anything of the sort. Yet, when I go through six years of studying philosophy and social science, I am arrogant for thinking I am learned in the field. I did not have any problems with what you said. But then, people have often accused me of being arrogant and condescending, so I am not sure that is a good thing. Oh well, at least, I can commiserate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) I did not have any problems with what you said. But then, people have often accused me of being arrogant and condescending, so I am not sure that is a good thing. Oh well, at least, I can commiserate. I will take this small moment of camaraderie, even if it is over the deadliest of the seven sins. Edited June 20, 2014 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I think we have an unfair attitude towards the social sciences and philosophy. Nobody would bat an eye if a physicist or chemist said anything of the sort. Yet, when I go through six years of studying philosophy and social science, I am arrogant for thinking I am learned in the field. It will never cease to amaze me how, currently in my eleventh year of university study, my mother with her high school education will manage to effortlessly stop me in my tracks with what is quite objectively a superior argument. The wisdom to be gained from life experience is, in my so-far-relatively-limited life experience, of greater value than what I can learn from books. Actually, I learn the most when I attempt to integrate the two, both in thought and in prayer. Please don't feel attacked - it's NOT arrogant to have worked hard to attain a level of learning and to be confident in that level of learning. I tend to think perhaps your expression of it amongst such a diverse population maybe could have been a bit more sensitive to the feelings of those with different gifts to give, but it wasn't arrogant. After all, if you've been given a gift, you aren't supposed to hide it under a bushel, are you? But there will always be a brighter light than yours... and so long as you can recognise that without indignance then you're fine :) Maybe there is something to be learned on a human level, that can't be learned in books, from your own personal response to our fellow-PM'ers rather indulgent and gentle teasing? Pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) It will never cease to amaze me how, currently in my eleventh year of university study, my mother with her high school education will manage to effortlessly stop me in my tracks with what is quite objectively a superior argument. The wisdom to be gained from life experience is, in my so-far-relatively-limited life experience, of greater value than what I can learn from books. Actually, I learn the most when I attempt to integrate the two, both in thought and in prayer. Please don't feel attacked - it's NOT arrogant to have worked hard to attain a level of learning and to be confident in that level of learning. I tend to think perhaps your expression of it amongst such a diverse population maybe could have been a bit more sensitive to the feelings of those with different gifts to give, but it wasn't arrogant. After all, if you've been given a gift, you aren't supposed to hide it under a bushel, are you? But there will always be a brighter light than yours... and so long as you can recognise that without indignance then you're fine :) Maybe there is something to be learned on a human level, that can't be learned in books, from your own personal response to our fellow-PM'ers rather indulgent and gentle teasing? Pax. Technical skill does not make a person smart. We are in agreement. I was never claiming anything beyond technical skill. Edited June 21, 2014 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Technical skill does not make a person smart. We are in agreement. I was never claiming anything beyond technical skill. Oh, I know :) I tend to think everyone else realised that too. Thats what I meant when I posed the question at the end of my comment to you - the other PMers were only gently teasing. I don't think anyone was truly levelling the charge of arrogance (although perhaps I'm wrong here?) So maybe the fact that you appeared (once again, maybe I'm wrong?) to be upset by a perceived accusation of arrogance might be an opening for some form of growth in self-knowledge. Then again, maybe not. I was just putting it out there in case there is any benefit to be had. Putting aside that presumptuous suggestion of mine (and I concede that it IS a little presumptuous, because I don't know you from a bar of soap)... I'd actually be very interested to hear more of what you have to say on why you feel that "we" (by which I'm guessing you mean society as a whole?) have an unfair attitude toward the social sciences and philosophy? I have my own theories about this, and about the tendency of proponents for various physical sciences to overreach themselves epistemologically to the detriment of the more speculative sciences such as philosophy... but perhaps I'm coming at it from a different place than you anyway. I'd be interested to hear your view if you're open to elaboration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Putting aside that presumptuous suggestion of mine (and I concede that it IS a little presumptuous, because I don't know you from a bar of soap)... I'd actually be very interested to hear more of what you have to say on why you feel that "we" (by which I'm guessing you mean society as a whole?) have an unfair attitude toward the social sciences and philosophy? I have my own theories about this, and about the tendency of proponents for various physical sciences to overreach themselves epistemologically to the detriment of the more speculative sciences such as philosophy... but perhaps I'm coming at it from a different place than you anyway. I'd be interested to hear your view if you're open to elaboration. I think that the background has to be set as one that elevates utilitarian production over anything else. As a country, we no longer find intrinsic value in education. Getting a college degree is a utilitarian calculation to get a better paying job. That being said, I think the devaluation of the social sciences and philosophy springs from the fact that they are embedded in our everyday actions. We do not want to be told that our views on politics (social and economic) are silly and uninformed. Instead of John Milbank's incredible argument against same-sex marriage, we get people like Rick Santorium. We do not want a smart President. We want a president who is just as dumb as we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I think that the background has to be set as one that elevates utilitarian production over anything else. As a country, we no longer find intrinsic value in education. Getting a college degree is a utilitarian calculation to get a better paying job. That being said, I think the devaluation of the social sciences and philosophy springs from the fact that they are embedded in our everyday actions. We do not want to be told that our views on politics (social and economic) are silly and uninformed. Instead of John Milbank's incredible argument against same-sex marriage, we get people like Rick Santorium. We do not want a smart President. We want a president who is just as dumb as we are. Thanks for that link. I greatly appreciated this article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Thanks for that link. I greatly appreciated this article. John Milbank is a treasure. And it are topics such as his on same-sex marriage why I do not know what to call myself any more. I kind of agree with Milbank that we should keep marriage between a man and a woman, but that we should also bless homosexual unions—maybe Boswell's adelphopoiesis—that reflects the beauty of homosexual unions in all their uniqueness. I am rather conservative in my approach to human sexuality, even if I am not against homosexual unions. I am officially coining the term left-wing conservative for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 John Milbank is a treasure. And it are topics such as his on same-sex marriage why I do not know what to call myself any more. I kind of agree with Milbank that we should keep marriage between a man and a woman, but that we should also bless homosexual unions—maybe Boswell's adelphopoiesis—that reflects the beauty of homosexual unions in all their uniqueness. I am rather conservative in my approach to human sexuality, even if I am not against homosexual unions. I am officially coining the term left-wing conservative for myself. wait wait what ? you have a differing opinion on homosexual marriage , and you call yourself a Catholic ? and you are considering yourself a left-wing conservative ! BLAAAAAAAAAAASPHMEY ! How dareth you ! :rabbit: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 wait wait what ? you have a differing opinion on homosexual marriage , and you call yourself a Catholic ? and you are considering yourself a left-wing conservative ! BLAAAAAAAAAAASPHMEY ! How dareth you ! :rabbit: All I could think was... I LOVE BUNNIES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 All I could think was... I LOVE BUNNIES! http://youtu.be/nT3MBYp5I-Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 John Milbank is a treasure. And it are topics such as his on same-sex marriage why I do not know what to call myself any more. I kind of agree with Milbank that we should keep marriage between a man and a woman, but that we should also bless homosexual unions—maybe Boswell's adelphopoiesis—that reflects the beauty of homosexual unions in all their uniqueness. I am rather conservative in my approach to human sexuality, even if I am not against homosexual unions. I am officially coining the term left-wing conservative for myself. I suspect that the more deeply one thinks about matters the more difficult it is to fit into conventional categories. These tend to be based on simplified positions with little recognition of complexity. And please excuse my outburst about bunnies. It is inevitable that a person who knows all the songs in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer musical episode will have some odd reactions at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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