Perigrina Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I don't agree with some parts of this. I wouldn't put Assisi or the Charismatic Renewal under liberal. Plenty of orthodox Catholics are involved in the charismatic movement no? Yes, I question those elements too. Overall, though, I think it is pretty good. I fit fairly well in the Traditionalist description which is also a way I like to describe myself, so it works on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Yes, I question those elements too. Overall, though, I think it is pretty good. I fit fairly well in the Traditionalist description which is also a way I like to describe myself, so it works on me. To me a "traditionalist" is someone who is also a restorationist. To want the so called "extraordinatory" form to become ordinary again, ie universal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 I thought that I was agreeing back with you. I am sorry if my posts came across as trying to start an argument. That was not my intent at all. I was just exploring different ways that people use terms. It's very interesting, all the "schools of thought" within Catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Mortify, since you were, I believe, once of the muslim faith, how do you feel about the Islamic prayers on Vatican property? Also, I found this yesterday asking "Do Muslims worship the same God Catholics do?" http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do What is your opinion on this? Huh, I don't think she's trying to start an argument but probably just running with a thought she had? I miss your fashionista avatar. It's not showing up. I thought that I was agreeing back with you. I am sorry if my posts came across as trying to start an argument. That was not my intent at all. I was just exploring different ways that people use terms. OK. Then I over-reacted and I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 To me a "traditionalist" is someone who is also a restorationist. To want the so called "extraordinatory" form to become ordinary again, ie universal. I do want to see access to the EF improved to the point where it is practical for everyone who wants to attend it to do so, but many Catholics would be spiritually harmed if they lost access to Mass in the vernacular. I actually think that the best missal to make into the ordinary form would be the interim Mass of 1965. It was basically the Tridentine Mass translated into the vernacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 OK. Then I over-reacted and I apologize. Not a problem. It is probably because of my avatar. It makes it look like I'm always arguing. I bet it makes me look fat too. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Mortify, since you were, I believe, once of the muslim faith, how do you feel about the Islamic prayers on Vatican property? Also, I found this yesterday asking "Do Muslims worship the same God Catholics do?" http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do What is your opinion on this? NotreDame, It's been years since I would associate myself with the Ahl Sunnah so my opinion is in no ways authorative. Further more, I also associated with the Naksibendi Tariqat which further put me at odds with some Muslims. Regarding praying on Vatican ground I would have said there is no issue with it as long as Christian symbols are not present which by the sounds of it there were not. And as for whether Christians worship the same God, the best answer I would give is that Christians had a distorted concept of God because they associated partners with Allah by saying He has a begotten son who is also divine and that he is one of three. In Islam this type of sin, "shirk" or associating partners with Allah is the worst sin that can be committed. Of course, Muhammad did not possess an accurate understanding of Christianity and so this shows in the Quran, such as the suggestion that for Christians to believe Jesus is the "son" would require believing that Allah had a wife and had a carnal union with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) I do want to see access to the EF improved to the point where it is practical for everyone who wants to attend it to do so, but many Catholics would be spiritually harmed if they lost access to Mass in the vernacular. I actually think that the best missal to make into the ordinary form would be the interim Mass of 1965. It was basically the Tridentine Mass translated into the vernacular. LOL Sorry, but do you mean spiritually harmed like when the new liturgy was forced down everyone's throat? I always find it amusing when someone suggests there would be harm in abandoning customs that are decades old when we threw away practices that go back to the Apostles. Edited June 8, 2014 by mortify ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I actually think that the best missal to make into the ordinary form would be the interim Mass of 1965. It was basically the Tridentine Mass translated into the vernacular. The best thing is to restore the Tridentine liturgy and have Catholics memorize the ordinary in Latin the way Muslims memorize the Quran in Arabic, and then study the translations and commentary of the text for understanding. But that's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 While I think there are some severe generalities with the chart mortify posted, I think it gives you a general flavor of the spectrum. What's missing is the Evangelical Catholicism. Phatmass is incredibly evangelically Catholic. Maybe that also makes it neocon? Any time I get the opportunity to like to William Portier's essay on Evangelical Catholicism, I do, so here it is: http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/4827 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 While I think there are some severe generalities with the chart mortify posted, I think it gives you a general flavor of the spectrum. What's missing is the Evangelical Catholicism. Phatmass is incredibly evangelically Catholic. Maybe that also makes it neocon? Any time I get the opportunity to like to William Portier's essay on Evangelical Catholicism, I do, so here it is: http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/4827 :) The term "evangelical" has such a negative connotation to it that I don't think it's prudent to start labeling ourselves as "Evangelical Catholics". Furthermore, your link isn't working. :P Would you care to explain what this term means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Mortify, since you were, I believe, once of the muslim faith, how do you feel about the Islamic prayers on Vatican property? Also, I found this yesterday asking "Do Muslims worship the same God Catholics do?" http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do What is your opinion on this? I miss your fashionista avatar. It's not showing up. OK. Then I over-reacted and I apologize. I was trying to switch it to a new one but it wasn't formatted properly. I can see the original...smh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) I noticed but didn't want to say anything LOL. Have you seen the responses from evangelicals/nondenom Christians like the one I mentioned in the OP? Hysterical. I think that a certain subsection of the Christian community is a lot more concerned about 'prophecy' than they are with people's lives, and this is a very damaging and unhelpful preoccupation. I'm currently a student in the Holy Land and have spent a lot of time here previously, in Bethlehem. Occasionally I meet evangelical visitors who are absolutely fixated on the End Times and who view everything that happens here through that lens. This seriously limits their ability to respond compassionately to the problems that people are facing in this region, as they're determined to shoehorn everyone into some sweeping narrative of Armageddon rather than actually listening to what people have to say. The pope's presence here seems to have done a lot of good. My neighbourhood is mixed Muslim/Christian (the Christians are mainly Orthodox) and nobody has a bad word to say about him. After the papal Mass I went to buy some vegetables and found the greengrocer and his daughter (both Muslims) deep in an animated discussion about the pope's prayer at the wall and his chances for bringing peace. They had lots of questions for me about the Mass and seemed genuinely excited. They're not about to leap into the baptismal font, no - they're just happy at what they see as a religious leader's sincere effort at peace-making. It exasperates me when other Christians insist on trying to find some sinister ulterior explanation for what Pope Francis is trying to do, rather than just accepting that people who have faced serious political violence for as long as they've been alive are eager for a little hope. Edited June 8, 2014 by beatitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 While I think there are some severe generalities with the chart mortify posted, I think it gives you a general flavor of the spectrum. What's missing is the Evangelical Catholicism. Phatmass is incredibly evangelically Catholic. Maybe that also makes it neocon? Any time I get the opportunity to like to William Portier's essay on Evangelical Catholicism, I do, so here it is: http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/4827 :) I agree that in the US the chart works more or less, with catholics on a bit of a continuum from left to right, with traditionalists to the right of 'neocons'. In other countries, however, it's more complicated. Just sharing my experience w/ the board, Traditionalists in latin-america are often just... well, traditional... but it's the "neoconservatives" that can be quite extreme, usually in how teach obedience to their members. Evangelical Catholics? Probably describes Stuebenville pretty well based on what I've heard. Would charismatics fit in the evangelical bucket or at least overlap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 NotreDame, It's been years since I would associate myself with the Ahl Sunnah so my opinion is in no ways authorative. Further more, I also associated with the Naksibendi Tariqat which further put me at odds with some Muslims. Regarding praying on Vatican ground I would have said there is no issue with it as long as Christian symbols are not present which by the sounds of it there were not. And as for whether Christians worship the same God, the best answer I would give is that Christians had a distorted concept of God because they associated partners with Allah by saying He has a begotten son who is also divine and that he is one of three. In Islam this type of sin, "shirk" or associating partners with Allah is the worst sin that can be committed. Of course, Muhammad did not possess an accurate understanding of Christianity and so this shows in the Quran, such as the suggestion that for Christians to believe Jesus is the "son" would require believing that Allah had a wife and had a carnal union with her. Thanks for the response. Were you raised as a muslim? If so, what brought around your conversion and how has your family felt about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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