Mass Grave In Ireland ( A No No Topic On C.a.f )

[superblue]

http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/800-baby-skeletons-found-in-mass-grave-at-irish-home-for-unwed-mothers/

 

since we are allowed to be lame I figured why not post this.

 

 At a time when being an unwed mother in Ireland was about as shameful as it could get, and as for this particular article,  I have no clue how bias or unbiased it is, I suspect it is a mix of a topic of unwed mothers / a disease that struck the area.  Now I mention C.A.F because if I tried to post this there, the first thing people would jump on instantly is ( BLAAAAAAASPHEMY SHAME ON YOU FOR POSTING SUCH LIES FROM AN UNREPUTALBE SOURCE THAT IS BASHING THE CHURCH !  ) Which just makes me shake my head in utter confusion ,  granted the media slants issues and they do it for everyone including the Church when it suits their need to do so.  What I take issue with is how sad it is that the Church has never tried to even give some kind of proper burial for these children, it would not bankrupt the Church to set aside a collection for these children to have a proper burial instead of being in a mass grave next to a septic tank ....  

 

I guess my questions would be, what did the Church do to embrace these unwed mothers at that time, and where was any hint of common sense in all of this ? I mean granted it was a different time frame, and the society of that area and the world was different but I would suspect Christs' love for everyone never changes, even those outside of the Church if not more love for those and a thirst for those outside of the Church.... And why is the Church content with merely a plaque being placed to mark the site. Why the silence.

 

More over, if people are tired of links from the media on such things, exactly where in the Church are we to get such information and following comments on such matters ? I don't really think the Vatican website has a news source link for things, an I would rather eat a bag of nails then going to C.A.F for information.

 

 

feel free to not give two beans, I am just curious.

[maximillion]

This is a reliable reporting. It was on Radio four (BBC) this morning much to my sorrow, so I don't know that there have been any efforts to suppress it.

 

A statement has been given by the Srs of Bon Secours who said they support and will cooperate with any investigation and are saddened by this news. When the Home was closed in the early 70's they handed over all documentation to the state authorities. So it isn't, at least in Ireland and the UK that anyone is keeping silent, Church or otherwise.

 

All the names of the children were recorded by the Sisters at that time in a book, and will appear on the memorial that is now being planned.

 

It is sad, and it is also too early to assign blame or recrimination, we must wait for the outcome of the investigation.

[CatherineM]

I suspect these children died of natural causes. It's how they were buried that will be the issue. I suppose they were viewed as produced in sin and not worth a proper burial.

[cmaD2006]

Moving to Open Mic -- this doesn't seem like a lame topic to me.

(sorry -- meant to leave the link also in Lame Board, but forgot to hit the right option).

[Perigrina]

I have seen different accounts of this from different sources and the only facts that seem clear is that the corpses of children from an home for unwed mothers/ orphanage were buried in a mass grave that had a cement cover.  Some accounts claim it was a septic tank but I find that unlikely, at least not one that was used as a receptacle for both bodies and sewage. There is no indication of foul play in the deaths of these children.  There is insufficient evidence at this point to claim there was a criminal level of neglect.  It is the nature of institutions that they are unable to give the same individual attention possible in families.  This is associated with higher mortality as is the poverty which is the likely condition of both the orphans and sisters.  Mass graves are not necessarily a sign of improper burial or disrespect.  It is possible that they did not have the resources to deal with individual burials.   

 

At this point, there is no basis to make any claims of wrongdoing. There has been a great deal of sensationalism and media spin to give an impression that something horrible happened, but this is unsupported by evidence.  There is probably some justification for the claim that the culture of that time and place was unaccepting or even cruel to illegitimate children. (Our society is at the opposite extreme of not even acknowledging that it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage.)  However, the outcry against these sisters appears to be the result of rash judgment and anti-Catholic sentiment.

[maximillion]

I am out of props, but agree with perigrina.

 

We don't know enough.

[Nihil Obstat]

Given the economic history of Ireland, I think it is a fairly safe guess that crushing economic hardship played a large role in this story.

[KnightofChrist]

The Catholic League has a article on this, it seems that it's a recycled hit piece. Shock.

 

http://www.catholicleague.org/myths-of-the-magdalene-laundries/

 

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[Perigrina]

The Catholic League has a article on this, it seems that it's a recycled hit piece. Shock.

 

http://www.catholicleague.org/myths-of-the-magdalene-laundries/

 

This is a great article.  It deals with Magdalene Houses, rather than this specific home/orphanage, but the media approach and people's responses are similar.  I really liked this part:  

 

It has been my experience that when bad news about the Catholic Church surfaces, it is seen as good news by three groups: hard-left Catholics;  hard-right Catholics; and anti-Catholics.

Catholics of a left-wing orientation typically respond to bad news about the Church by saying this proves that Vatican II did not go far enough; Catholics of a right-wing orientation typically respond to bad news by saying this proves Vatican II went too far (or that it should never have been held in the first place).

In the case of the Magdalene Laundries, of course, it makes no sense to invoke Vatican II (the Council was convened between 1962 and 1965). What brings critics on the left and right together is an abiding tendency to believe the worst about the Church. Why? Because in doing so it validates their position.

 

This is just what I have observed too.  And I have reached a similar conclusion.  Here is a link to another article which was referenced in the Catholic League one.  This is by an atheist (the good kind): http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100202781/catholic-bashers-have-embellished-the-truth-about-abuse-in-catholic-institutions-its-time-to-put-the-record-straight/

 

Anyone who points out that reports and depictions of abuse in Catholic institutions have been overblown risks being denounced as an abuse apologist or a sinister whitewasher. When I pointed out a couple of years ago that The Independent was wrong to say 10,000 children were raped by American priests, I was accused by one humanist magazine of being "pedantic". So it's pedantic to point out that there is a difference between being verbally abused by a priest and raped by one? These days, anyone who insists on getting the facts straight about Catholic institutions is accused of being a pedant, someone annoyingly and peskily committed to historical accuracy rather than to the grander goal of making the Catholic Church appear as rotten and warped as possible, regardless of the facts. Yet those of us, even atheists like me, who are genuinely interested in truth and justice should definitely be concerned that films and news reports may have left the public with the mistaken belief that women in Magdalene laundries were stripped and beaten and that thousands of Irish and American children were raped by priests.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Perigrina

[superblue]

I do want to point out I did not post this as any kind of anti-Catholic piece, I think that is rather obvious but if not, then here is your sign.

 

I am glad to see the responses on this as on c.a.f it would have been slammed instantly as anti-Catholic propaganda and bye bye.It does deserve  a look at I thought an glad to see there are other places even looks like a catholic news site of sorts mentioning it.

 

I do have a hard time believing that these were some harden cruel sisters who just  disposed of unwanted children.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was both sick and unwanted children..

I also think, the big problem a mass grave either near or in the area of a septic tank and being tied to the Church....   The hard questions I think is who authorized the mass grave and why; along with the other questions that have been already stated.  A mass grave is going to get news any where it is found, but what makes it worse is being tied to the Church. When we are noted for " Christian burials ", I find it hard to believe that something better could not have been arranged for everyone involved during that era., an this just came to mind,  800 babies = x amount of women, could be one woman a baby or what ever I am not a mathematician nor a statistics guy, thing is, seems to me there would be an article some where about this time frame in history, this religious order of women, and why the area were bringing babies there or why women where having births there, also there should be some historical records about any kind of mass sickness ravaging the area at that time.....  I do not think this is some big mystery that can not be solved. Pending if anyone is going to even bother doing an Autopsy to any of the remains.

Edited June 8, 2014 by superblue

[Skinzo]

It's a hit piece and the usual media misinformation. Catherine Corless, an Irish researcher was the original source of the story. She is amazed and angered at how the media have distorted it. A few samples: ‘I never used that word ‘dumped’,” Catherine Corless, a local historian in Co Galway, tells The Irish Times. “I never said to anyone that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank. That did not come from me at any point. They are not my words.” 

Corless, who lives outside Tuam, has been working for several years on records associated with the former St Mary’s mother-and-baby home in the town. Her research has revealed that 796 children, most of them infants, died between 1925 and 1961, the 36 years that the home, run by Bon Secours, existed.

Between 2011 and 2013 Corless paid €4 each time to get the children’s publicly available death certificates. She says the total cost was €3,184. “If I didn’t do it, nobody else would have done it. I had them all by last September.”

The children’s names, ages, places of birth and causes of death were recorded. The average number of deaths over the 36-year period was just over 22 a year. The information recorded on these State- issued certificates has been seen by The Irish Times; the children are marked as having died variously of tuberculosis, convulsions, measles, whooping cough, influenza, bronchitis and meningitis, among other illnesses.

The deaths of these 796 children are not in doubt. Their numbers are a stark reflection of a period in Ireland when infant mortality in general was very much higher than today, particularly in institutions, where infection spread rapidly. At times during those 36 years the Tuam home housed more than 200 children and 100 mothers, plus those who worked there, according to records Corless has found.

What has upset, confused and dismayed her in recent days is the speculative nature of much of the reporting around the story, particularly about what happened to the children after they died. “I never used that word ‘dumped’,” she says again, with distress. “I just wanted those children to be remembered and for their names to go up on a plaque. That was why I did this project, and now it has taken [on] a life of its own.”

In 2012 Corless published an article entitled “The Home” in the annual Journal of the Old Tuam Society. By then she had discovered that the 796 children had died while at St Mary’s, although she did not yet have all of their death certificates.

She also discovered that there were no burial records for the children and that they had not been interred in any of the local public cemeteries. In her article she concludes that many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home. This small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people, who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner." 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393?page=1

[Perigrina]

Short version:  The story about a mass grave comes from some kids who found a cement tank with skeletons around 30 years ago.  The children estimated about 20 bodies. The information about 800 deaths of orphans (from natural causes) comes from a researcher who looked through the death records.  She thinks they were buried in a simple unofficial graveyard on the property. 

 

The media put together the two stories and there were headlines all around the world about 800 orphans thrown in a septic tank.  There is no evidence at all that the sisters did anything wrong.  The mass grave is probably from before the time the sisters owned the property and the bodies are probably victims of the Irish Potato Famine.  There are mass graves all over the country from that time.  

 

The entire media storm was just the usual Catholic bashing and was basically made up.  

[superblue]

love the short version better than a full article, faster and to the point,  I didn't even consider the possibility that the bodies could have been there BEFORE the sisters had possession of the property.   An autopsy to confirm what the research shows wouldn't hurt anything.

[CatherineM]

I guess my parents are buried in a septic tank too. Their cemetery required concrete liners due to ground water issues. Keeps the dead from poisoning the living.

[superblue]

I guess my parents are buried in a septic tank too. Their cemetery required concrete liners due to ground water issues. Keeps the dead from poisoning the living.

You can rest easy knowing your parents were not buried in a septic tank, because a septic tank first has to have contained human waste at some point.  Lots of cemeteries in Louisiana near the Gulf of Mexico either have above ground plots or probably something similar as you have stated due to the weakness of the ground when flooding occurs.  And back in centuries past, people would take the time to bury the sick, well out of populate areas as they had the understanding of how diseases spread even in the dead and even when buried, same for the sewage systems of the times, they either piped it out of the city or figured another way to dispose of it . And if burying the diseased corpses was not an option burning them was the other.