Mass Should Be Reformed For The Modern Era

[Lil Red]

Debating with myself if I should venture into this or just go and have a drink instead....

 

drink, then post. that's the phatmass way. 

[Norseman82]

I'm curious what suggestions all of you have for getting people to come to mass and have a true connection with god on sunday.  Right now, with the exception of christmas and easter, you mostly see old people at mass. 

 

Personally, I think we need to restore more respect for the Real Presence.  That includes moving the tabernacle to the center of the sanctuary and genuflecting instead of bowing when passing in front of it (for the able bodied).  Plus, if the tabernacle were moved to the center of the sanctuary, you would know where to geneflect to!  Also, return to using the patens when distributing Communion.  Additionally, purify the vessels on the altar carefully and publically so people can see the care that priests take.  Ring the bells at consecration to highlight the momentous event occurring.  That's how it was done when I was younger.  These things can help instill a sense that, no mattter how bad the singing, preaching, architecture, etc., at least Christ is being consecrated. 

 

How is educating young people going to solve the issue?

 

Instill in them the obligatory nature of Mass on Sundays and HDOs. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Norseman82

[Dr_Asik]

I'm curious what suggestions all of you have for getting people to come to mass and have a true connection with god on sunday.  Right now, with the exception of christmas and easter, you mostly see old people at mass.  How is educating young people going to solve the issue?

It's obviously up to the parents to bring their children to mass, and if children never go to mass it is unlikely they will start doing that later in life. Then there's the matter of explaining to them why going to mass is important when they're old enough to choose.

 

Most people today don't have the faintest clue about religion (which is main reason why atheism is so popular - you don't need to know anything to be an atheist), including a lot of self-proclaimed Christians; they don't know who Jesus was and they have no idea whether he was raised from the dead... which is the basis of Christian faith! I mean you have a lot of ground to cover before you can get to explain the meaning of the Eucharist to them.

 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Dr_Asik

[Anastasia13]

Make new liturgy but keep the old. One is silver, and the other is gold.

[Dr_Asik]

I think if we do this, "Mass attendance" will increase.

 

mass Mass attendance! :bananarap:
 

[Norseman82]

It's obviously up to the parents to bring their children to mass, and if children never go to mass it is unlikely they will start doing that later in life. Then there's the matter of explaining to them why going to mass is important when they're old enough to choose.

 

 

Add to that the fact that many parents are living livestyles that are not in accord with Christian teaching, i.e., not obeying the rules on marriage (if they are married at all!), so it is not hard to see the confusion created when they see that the faith is not practiced at home.  Also, if these parents still manage to create a "loving" home, the kids may think, "gee, I don't need religion to be a good person".

[Benedictus]

I'm curious what suggestions all of you have for getting people to come to mass and have a true connection with god on sunday.  Right now, with the exception of christmas and easter, you mostly see old people at mass.  How is educating young people going to solve the issue?

 

Muslims meet in a room and pray the same cycle each time in Arabic, with a sermon added in on Fridays. They manage to do social action and charity work, plus pilgrimage. Do they need a reform to increase their numbers? No. People seem to attend for the right reasons.
The problem with many Christian churches, Catholic or not, is that they are sell outs. The people are not necessarily there for the right reasons and some, eager to keep the building alive or some other misgiven reason, will sell out everything for a few more bums on seats. The Unitarian Universalists are an example of theological sell outs. They even sold out on their intial heresy positions for new and improved ones! Sometimes the biggest mistakes and disasters are caused by people with good intentions! Most people, who have half a clue, will smell this a mile off and or walk away.

If you want to see what not to do then look to our own attempt at reform forty odd years ago! Also look at the reforms protestant churches make and the disaster this often is for them. They've introduced, more so than Catholics, all sorts of innovations to save their dwindling numbers. In many cases they only acclerate the decline because people hate the changes pushed on them.

 

I could make lists of these trends i.e cafe church, emerging church movement, folk services, fresh expressions, and also 'tweaking' reforms such as dropping hymns, introduing new hymns or music (fill in the space with the type), having non participation music, reducing scriptural readings in favour of laypeople reading 'quotes' from inspiring authors, reducing or increasing ritual (take your pick), reducing or begin using incense (take your pick), dropping communion in faviour of a communal dinner or potluck, reducing or removing a sermon in faviour of a slick themed video message, less candles or more candles (take your pick), less religious symbols and statues in favour of post modern art or, well, nothing, introducing more 'talks' on social action or charity causes or, not so common, increased use of individual personal testimony.

 

Some even save all this and simply sell the buildings and its contents so they can have a 'social centre' with a hall for 'meetings'. That or they go to the park for a picnic service. Most committed and sane people stop bothering by that point. Sadly not all bother reengaging with more serious places of worship after these initial experiences.

[Benedictus]

Polskieserce - You also have the assumption the mass is the problem.  I don't think that the mass is the problem per se. I think the way the mass liturgy is often done doesn't help people feel connected, interested and so on. That approach is the fault of clergy and parish councils. But I think you're not addressing the real causes of the low numbers in your country i.e poor liturgy and music (blame the modernist reformers in your parish for that), clerical/leadership abuse, cultural shifts that are at odds with church dogma,  lack of good examples for young people (mixed messages and heresy abound), poor catholic education (doctrine, dogma basics), lack of evangelization, lack of social circles or networking at church,  lack of vocational focus, and a lack of support for converts and young families. There is alo a lack of interest by lay people to be involved,  lead and fund programs/ groups for those under 35yrs. There is a big hole in campus and youth work.

There aren't enough Catholics educated and/or willing to work through theology/philosophy questions with young people to an adequate level. The Church doesn't talk about the relevance (or not) of the Bible and what 'God' is (or could be) and how this is relevant to people within the context of a community and the mass. It does this in theological colleges and behind closed doors. They allow heretics a free ride in taking the stage alone. Denouncing isn't enough!
I think you need to expand your scope and avoid thinking one aspect is the cause.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Benedictus

[Socrates]

Whenever you walk into a Catholic Church for mass, the procedure is pretty similar: a few hymns are sung, there is a reading from the Gospel, people shake hands with one another, and they receive Holy Communion.  A lot of young people nowadays don't go to mass because they complain that it's boring and not relevant to their lives.  Honestly, I think the solution is that the Catholic Mass needs to be reformed for the modern era.  Instead of a systematic ritual, it needs to be much more interactive and should be more geared towards helping the parishioners present at the mass solve problems in their lives, have broader discussions about the challenges they face in the community and form social relations to help prop each other up.  Have there ever been talks of any such reforms within the church?

 

The fact is that ever since the 1960's parishes have been constantly (and often illicitly - though that's another discussion) been changing and "reforming" the liturgy in attempts to make it more "relevant" and "modern."  We've had hippy folk masses, rock masses, polka masses, clown masses, techno rave masses - anything and everything to make the mass "relevant" to the modern era, and the youth (of whatever particular era).  Not to mention various attempts to make the mass more "interactive" and "get the congregation involved in the liturgy."  However, all the modernization and attempts to make the mass more "relevant" has not increased mass attendance, but instead mass attendance has fallen drastically in most places since the pre-Vatican II era.

 

The mass is not a talk show or a concert, or a social event, but the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the liturgy, done properly, reflects this.  Catholics should be taught how to understand the significance of the "systematic ritual" involved, rather than have it done away with in attempt to pander to people.

Interestingly, in the "conservative" and Traditional parishes I've been a part of, there is not a shortage of younger people like there is in many other parishes, but a healthy mix of people of all ages.

 

I think much of the problem you speak of could be solved simply by better, solid, more dynamic homilies which are (truly) relevant to people's lives and the moral challenges we face today.  In too many parishes, priests tend to give fluffy sermons with little real content, for fear of upsetting people.  Preaching the truth, including the "hard teachings" of the Faith may drive some away (some left Christ Himself), but will also help make people stronger and more dynamic in their faith.  However, the focus should always be primarily on Christ and His Gospel.  If the focus is not on Christ, all efforts will ultimately fail.

 

Of course, parishes can host plenty of social, educational, and charitable functions, but these things should be separate from the mass itself.

[Norseman82]

 They allow heretics a free ride in taking the stage alone.

 

 

 In too many parishes, priests tend to give fluffy sermons with little real content, for fear of upsetting people.  

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxrIjE-WNVA[/media]

[polskieserce]

Polskieserce - You also have the assumption the mass is the problem.  I don't think that the mass is the problem per se. I think the way the mass liturgy is often done doesn't help people feel connected, interested and so on. That approach is the fault of clergy and parish councils. But I think you're not addressing the real causes of the low numbers in your country i.e poor liturgy and music (blame the modernist reformers in your parish for that), clerical/leadership abuse, cultural shifts that are at odds with church dogma,  lack of good examples for young people (mixed messages and heresy abound), poor catholic education (doctrine, dogma basics), lack of evangelization, lack of social circles or networking at church,  lack of vocational focus, and a lack of support for converts and young families. There is alo a lack of interest by lay people to be involved,  lead and fund programs/ groups for those under 35yrs. There is a big hole in campus and youth work.

There aren't enough Catholics educated and/or willing to work through theology/philosophy questions with young people to an adequate level. The Church doesn't talk about the relevance (or not) of the Bible and what 'God' is (or could be) and how this is relevant to people within the context of a community and the mass. It does this in theological colleges and behind closed doors. They allow heretics a free ride in taking the stage alone. Denouncing isn't enough!
I think you need to expand your scope and avoid thinking one aspect is the cause.

 

With this thread, we are basically touching upon an even bigger topic, the decline of the church.  I brought up mass since that is the most common link that people have with the church.  I think the low mass attendance is a combination of things, as you pointed out.

 

1. Young people are not getting enough out of mass, most think it's boring and a waste of time

2. Culture changes have taken place over the past few decades

3. A lot of young people don't agree with some church positions, like no condoms, pre-m sex, or gay marriage

4. Marriage decline has taken place

5. Parents are no longer married/not practicing the religion

 

I do agree with you that there needs to be more of a social atmosphere at churches to really get young people interested in that type of stuff.  But it is clear that something has to change for the results to be different.

[Justin Netzel]

With this thread, we are basically touching upon an even bigger topic, the decline of the church.  I brought up mass since that is the most common link that people have with the church.  I think the low mass attendance is a combination of things, as you pointed out.

 

1. Young people are not getting enough out of mass, most think it's boring and a waste of time

2. Culture changes have taken place over the past few decades

3. A lot of young people don't agree with some church positions, like no condoms, pre-m sex, or gay marriage

4. Marriage decline has taken place

5. Parents are no longer married/not practicing the religion

 

I do agree with you that there needs to be more of a social atmosphere at churches to really get young people interested in that type of stuff.  But it is clear that something has to change for the results to be different.

 

This is a really great post for a number of reasons. First you identified the main thing pretty much every Catholic or former Catholic can identify with. The Mass. Secondly you have isolated five points that represent the major issues facing the Catholic Church today (not looking at sex scandals though the root is in my opinion in the same place). Your solution of a more social atmosphere at Mass is understandable however it fails to see what the actual cause of these problems is. What is the cause? well it lies in the first thing you brought up, the absolute center of every Catholic/former Catholic; the Mass. What has become of today's Mass? Well place yourself in the shoes of a five year old. Seriously next time you go to mass when you walk in do so in the shoes of a five year old. What is the first thing your attention is drawn to? It's drawn to the loudest thing, the most colorful thing, etc. In the case of your normal parish you see sally and joe chatting away and then the priest walks in and  goes up to the table turns around and faces the audience and begins the liturgy. There might be some hymns or a band if people get real creative or motivated to make it more interesting as well. What is the problem? Attention has tuned away from God in incremental ways in some parishes and in others massive ways and turned to MAN. If God is not the ONLY focus then Mass is pointless. Absolutly pointless. BLASPHEMY you say. It Is the simple truth. Let's look at the kids! They can see it but they don't know how to explain it because they never have experienced full attention on GOD. Let me explain this a little more clearly. We were created for God and whether we admit it to ourselves or not there is an unconcious yearning for fuffilment which only God can fill. The Mass has to have the Focus of GOD entirely because that is how the will functions. If you are in Mass your will has to be on God. Not God and man which is exactly what has happened with the OF. Just be honest with yourself and you can see this plain and simple truth. Listen to Our Lord and Savor Jesus Christ. A man CANNOT serve two masters. Why? because the will can only focus on one thing at a time. The mass has ceased to be JUST about God. It has become about God and Man and the WILL is confused. It tries to find God but can't because there are multiple things getting in the way. St. Augustine illustrates this so simply "Our heart cannot rest until it rests in Thee, O Lord." If the Lord is not the ONLY focus then the heart cannot be at rest for that 1 hour a week we have to give God and more importantly for God to give us. The answer to these problems is the Tridentine Mass. Plain and simple. The entire liturgy is built around God. The entire structure of the Mass is built around God. The will is not confused. That is why in my parish where the Tridentine Mass is said exclusivly there are hundreds of youth that still attend EVERY week. I myself am 22 and know the good majority of the youth and guess what? they are sinners but still Catholic. Marriage is taken seriously. People arent apostasizing left and right. My heart yearns for the day when the entire Catholic Church realizes this simple fundemental truth that recognizes the very basic truth about the soul and more importantly the heart (the will).

[Perigrina]

Welcome to the phorum, Justin.  Great first post.

[polskieserce]

This is a really great post for a number of reasons. First you identified the main thing pretty much every Catholic or former Catholic can identify with. The Mass. Secondly you have isolated five points that represent the major issues facing the Catholic Church today (not looking at sex scandals though the root is in my opinion in the same place). Your solution of a more social atmosphere at Mass is understandable however it fails to see what the actual cause of these problems is. What is the cause? well it lies in the first thing you brought up, the absolute center of every Catholic/former Catholic; the Mass. What has become of today's Mass? Well place yourself in the shoes of a five year old. Seriously next time you go to mass when you walk in do so in the shoes of a five year old. What is the first thing your attention is drawn to? It's drawn to the loudest thing, the most colorful thing, etc. In the case of your normal parish you see sally and joe chatting away and then the priest walks in and  goes up to the table turns around and faces the audience and begins the liturgy. There might be some hymns or a band if people get real creative or motivated to make it more interesting as well. What is the problem? Attention has tuned away from God in incremental ways in some parishes and in others massive ways and turned to MAN. If God is not the ONLY focus then Mass is pointless. Absolutly pointless. BLASPHEMY you say. It Is the simple truth. Let's look at the kids! They can see it but they don't know how to explain it because they never have experienced full attention on GOD. Let me explain this a little more clearly. We were created for God and whether we admit it to ourselves or not there is an unconcious yearning for fuffilment which only God can fill. The Mass has to have the Focus of GOD entirely because that is how the will functions. If you are in Mass your will has to be on God. Not God and man which is exactly what has happened with the OF. Just be honest with yourself and you can see this plain and simple truth. Listen to Our Lord and Savor Jesus Christ. A man CANNOT serve two masters. Why? because the will can only focus on one thing at a time. The mass has ceased to be JUST about God. It has become about God and Man and the WILL is confused. It tries to find God but can't because there are multiple things getting in the way. St. Augustine illustrates this so simply "Our heart cannot rest until it rests in Thee, O Lord." If the Lord is not the ONLY focus then the heart cannot be at rest for that 1 hour a week we have to give God and more importantly for God to give us. The answer to these problems is the Tridentine Mass. Plain and simple. The entire liturgy is built around God. The entire structure of the Mass is built around God. The will is not confused. That is why in my parish where the Tridentine Mass is said exclusivly there are hundreds of youth that still attend EVERY week. I myself am 22 and know the good majority of the youth and guess what? they are sinners but still Catholic. Marriage is taken seriously. People arent apostasizing left and right. My heart yearns for the day when the entire Catholic Church realizes this simple fundemental truth that recognizes the very basic truth about the soul and more importantly the heart (the will).

 

Is the Tridentine Mass the old school latin mass?

[Justin Netzel]

Ya it is.. the main difference that is striking is in the actual prayers themselves.. take a look at them if your interested and they are beautiful yet extremely representative (Since Mass is a re-presentation* of Christ's Sacrifice on Calvary) It's as if thought went into every single detail to gear the entire mind towards God and His Glorious Triumph over Sin and death.

 

IE actually re Presenting the Son on Calvary transcending time to offer on Calvary the Spotless Victim for the propitiation of our sins

Edited June 6, 2014 by Justin Netzel