Mass Should Be Reformed For The Modern Era

[Deus te Amat]

I stand by what I said.

 

And it may be true, but it didn't address the immediate topic. Now, your second post I heartily approve of.  :like2:

[Perigrina]

Please, let's not make this a debate about extra-ordinary vs. ordinary form. I'm afraid that doing so will just push Polskie further away. Both are valid forms, Christ is present and working in both. Leave it at that -- please!

 

I am not questioning that the Ordinary Form is valid.  From what I've heard, there were many places where it was not introduced in a pastorally sensitive way.  It was also accompanied by unnecessary optional practices that further alienated people. For example, there was never a directive or instruction telling us to tear out the altars and replace them with free standing ones.  People saw churches - often churches built with their donations- being defaced in the name of reform for the modern era.  This was very upsetting for many people.

[Nihil Obstat]

[10.] The Church herself has no power over those things which were established by Christ himself and which constitute an unchangeable part of the Liturgy.[23] Indeed, if the bond were to be broken which the Sacraments have with Christ himself who instituted them, and with the events of the Church’s founding,[24] it would not be beneficial to the faithful but rather would do them grave harm. For the Sacred Liturgy is quite intimately connected with principles of doctrine,[25] so that the use of unapproved texts and rites necessarily leads either to the attenuation or to the disappearance of that necessary link between the lex orandi and the lex credendi.[26]

[11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.[27] On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,[28] and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,[29] but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.[30] The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.[31]

 

Redemptionis Sacramentum

[Deus te Amat]

I am not questioning that the Ordinary Form is valid.  From what I've heard, there were many places where it was not introduced in a pastorally sensitive way.  It was also accompanied by unnecessary optional practices that further alienated people. For example, there was never a directive or instruction telling us to tear out the altars and replace them with free standing ones.  People saw churches - often churches built with their donations- being defaced in the name of reform for the modern era.  This was very upsetting for many people.

 

You are very much right -- I am sorry, this is just such an important topic that I did not want to let it get derailed with a extraordinary vs ordinary form debate, but I have already contributed to it.

 

It IS important to note how much dissension was caused with the last attempt to update the Mass to the modern era. I apologize.

[Dr_Asik]

I agree that the point of the mass is to have communion.  But how would you do the other things I mentioned in a 1 hr period without cutting other stuff out?

I think you have a great idea and that Christians should definitely meet regularly to discuss their religious life and issues together. I just don't think that Mass is the correct context for that kind of social activity. Mass is absolutely a ritual, it's a ritual of worship and celebration of the Eucharist, and it's very important that it retains this character. As others have pointed out, whenever the form of Mass is altered, it loses some of its meaning, because as a ritual, Mass is not so much ours but God's. People go there for the contact with the Sacred.

 

Why are young people not interested in Mass? Because they have deficient religious education and don't understand the value of having this ritual; they don't see its deep historical and spiritual meaning. I agree that it's difficult to get young people to enjoy and appreciate Mass, because that requires some maturity and education; I think for young people, social gatherings like what you mention are a vital part of religious formation, and I think that a Christian community that only has Mass as a communal activity is pretty anemic.

 

So, definitely in favor of social meetings for discussion and exchange on spiritual life and religious issues, but you don't need to reform Mass to have that. ;)

 

By the way, when I was a kid, at my parish during Mass, the children would gather in the basement of the church and there was some teaching and fun activities. Then after the homily, we would go back to our seats with our parents. That way, we skipped the long part of the Mass we couldn't understand anyway, got a lot more education out of it, and still attended the Eucharist. I think that was great.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Dr_Asik

[chrysostom]

Redemptionis Sacramentum

 

Promulgated in 2004, baby.  :cool:

[Perigrina]

You are very much right -- I am sorry, this is just such an important topic that I did not want to let it get derailed with a extraordinary vs ordinary form debate, but I have already contributed to it.

 

It IS important to note how much dissension was caused with the last attempt to update the Mass to the modern era. I apologize.

 

I accept your apology.  Thank you for your courtesy. 

[polskieserce]

Most catholics are not going to be involved in mass as well as several hours of church related activities every week.  For most catholics (assuming they even go to mass regularly, since many do not), an hour is all they are putting in to church related activities.  What I'm saying is that it would be wise to try to make better use of that 1 hr than the church is right now.  Here is on possible version.  Communion would still take place, since that is the centerpiece of the celebration.  However, the hymns could be done away with and the gospel readings should be greatly shortened.  With all that time that's been freed up, a few people (selected in advance) could speak in front of the church about some moral problem/dilemma they are having.  The priest could offer guidance to the people and back up his statements using gospel teachings.  That would be so much more engaging and help people live more honorable and moral lives.  It would help people be a lot more connected and it would really promote Catholic solidarity.

[Perigrina]

Most catholics are not going to be involved in mass as well as several hours of church related activities every week.  For most catholics (assuming they even go to mass regularly, since many do not), an hour is all they are putting in to church related activities.  What I'm saying is that it would be wise to try to make better use of that 1 hr than the church is right now.  Here is on possible version.  Communion would still take place, since that is the centerpiece of the celebration.  However, the hymns could be done away with and the gospel readings should be greatly shortened.  With all that time that's been freed up, a few people (selected in advance) could speak in front of the church about some moral problem/dilemma they are having.  The priest could offer guidance to the people and back up his statements using gospel teachings.  That would be so much more engaging and help people live more honorable and moral lives.  It would help people be a lot more connected and it would really promote Catholic solidarity.

 

I would not come to a service like that.  It sounds like an encounter group, not a Mass.

[Deus te Amat]

Most catholics are not going to be involved in mass as well as several hours of church related activities every week.  For most catholics (assuming they even go to mass regularly, since many do not), an hour is all they are putting in to church related activities.  What I'm saying is that it would be wise to try to make better use of that 1 hr than the church is right now.  Here is on possible version.  Communion would still take place, since that is the centerpiece of the celebration.  However, the hymns could be done away with and the gospel readings should be greatly shortened.  With all that time that's been freed up, a few people (selected in advance) could speak in front of the church about some moral problem/dilemma they are having.  The priest could offer guidance to the people and back up his statements using gospel teachings.  That would be so much more engaging and help people live more honorable and moral lives.  It would help people be a lot more connected and it would really promote Catholic solidarity.

 

WWJD.

[PhuturePriest]

The Mass is structured off Revelations. It is the meeting place between heaven and earth. It has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with the Sacrifice. Stop making it about us. It has nothing to do with us. The only part of it that involves us is how we should be weeping at the mere thought that we're invited to the greatest thing in the history of the earth.

[Dr_Asik]

Most catholics are not going to be involved in mass as well as several hours of church related activities every week.  For most catholics (assuming they even go to mass regularly, since many do not), an hour is all they are putting in to church related activities.  What I'm saying is that it would be wise to try to make better use of that 1 hr than the church is right now.  Here is on possible version.  Communion would still take place, since that is the centerpiece of the celebration.  However, the hymns could be done away with and the gospel readings should be greatly shortened.  With all that time that's been freed up, a few people (selected in advance) could speak in front of the church about some moral problem/dilemma they are having.  The priest could offer guidance to the people and back up his statements using gospel teachings.  That would be so much more engaging and help people live more honorable and moral lives.  It would help people be a lot more connected and it would really promote Catholic solidarity.

A couple of thoughts in no particular order:

 

- The lectures are pretty short as it is. Even if you remove all of them except for the Gospel, you're only freeing perhaps 10-15 minutes.

- What you're suggesting seems to shift the focus of the Mass from God (in his Revelation) to the community and the priest.

- "The priest offering guidance to the people and backing up his statements using gospel teachings" sounds a lot like what a homily usually is. A careful priest will preach in a way that illuminates a particular problem or dilemma that his community is having.

 

I really don't mean to be negative towards your idea though, as I can see where you're coming from. As I said, I think there's a profound meaning in Mass as a fixed, historical ritual that is lost when you start adapting it in various ways, and what you're proposing just doesn't fit the general purpose and character of the Mass and this is why this idea couldn't be accepted. But feel free to discuss this with your local priest, perhaps he'll come up with a good alternative. I think he should be delighted that members of the community are interested in more engaging forms of communal activity.

 

[Fidei Defensor]

I highly recommend anyone and everyone should read "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.

[Nihil Obstat]

Most catholics are not going to be involved in mass as well as several hours of church related activities every week.  For most catholics (assuming they even go to mass regularly, since many do not), an hour is all they are putting in to church related activities.  What I'm saying is that it would be wise to try to make better use of that 1 hr than the church is right now.  Here is on possible version.  Communion would still take place, since that is the centerpiece of the celebration.  However, the hymns could be done away with and the gospel readings should be greatly shortened.  With all that time that's been freed up, a few people (selected in advance) could speak in front of the church about some moral problem/dilemma they are having.  The priest could offer guidance to the people and back up his statements using gospel teachings.  That would be so much more engaging and help people live more honorable and moral lives.  It would help people be a lot more connected and it would really promote Catholic solidarity.

So Jerry Springer Catholic edition?

[polskieserce]

So Jerry Springer Catholic edition?

 

LOL :hehe2:  Not exactly what I had in mind, since there would be nobody arguing with the speaker, but I can only imagine how funny a SNL skit would be about this.