Pope Kisses The Hand Of, Concelebrates Mass With Pro-homosexual Activi

[Selah]

[KnightofChrist]

Really? I have more doubts that they would offer the hand, so to speak. Haven't they been the ones refusing to compromise, at all, when Benedict was Pope? I don't remember ever hearing that they were willing to budge on anything, even symbolic gestures. 

 

Edit: Well, even Bishop Fellay just meeting with the pope informally is a good thing. 

 

I don't think Father Foggia even offered his hand to be kissed, it was a surprise to him. I doubt Father Foggia is willing to compromise any of his beliefs that are actually directly contradict Church teaching. Beliefs he has dedicated and advocated most of his priestly life. Still he was shown a mercy that will likely not be given to someone like Bishop Fellay.

 

 

Francis did briefly chat with Bishop Fellay recently, no hand kissing though, well Fellay did kiss the Pope's hand.

Edited May 28, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[Basilisa Marie]

I don't think Father Foggia even offered his hand to be kissed, it was a surprise to him. I doubt Father Foggia is willing to compromise any of his beliefs that are actually directly contradict Church teaching. Beliefs he has dedicated and advocated most of his priestly life. Still he was shown a mercy that will likely not be given to someone like Bishop Fellay.

 

Well, you're probably right about Fr. Foggia, though I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to what the Pope would or wouldn't do. At the end of the day, your guess really is as good as mine. 

[mortify ii]

:| Seriously?

So what's the reason for it being ok for the Pope to concelebrate mass with a heretic who is putting significant effort into altering the laws of God? Please, tell me what the new theology has to offer.

[Nihil Obstat]

As far as I can tell, nobody is arguing that the concelebrated Mass was invalid. I think bringing up Donatism only distracts from the real issue here.

[arfink]

 

 

[Basilisa Marie]

So what's the reason for it being ok for the Pope to concelebrate mass with a heretic who is putting significant effort into altering the laws of God? Please, tell me what the new theology has to offer.

 

I trust his judgment. If a regular priest or bishop were to concelebrate mass with him, we could reasonably assume that the priest or bishop agreed with him. Not so with the pope. I think it's obvious that the pope isn't going to change Church teaching, so I see this as an act of charity, that the pope is seeing Christ in the errant priest, despite the priest's serious problems. The priest hasn't been formally excommunicated, and his faculties as a priest are intact. Even if the priest is in a state of mortal sin, he can still celebrate a valid mass. If the priest has friendly feelings toward the pope, there's a much better chance that his heart will soften. Obviously pounding the guy on the head with Truth hasn't gotten anywhere yet. Maybe showing him some kindness will help. 

My takeaway from the pope's actions is that people who disagree and struggle with the Church's teachings shouldn't be kicked out as a knee-jerk reaction. Kicking them out should be a last resort, to help them understand the seriousness of their situation. It's not like the pope approves of everything the guy does - how can he, he's the pope? But the pope can still try to see Christ in him. That what I think he's doing. 

[KnightofChrist]

Well, you're probably right about Fr. Foggia, though I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to what the Pope would or wouldn't do. At the end of the day, your guess really is as good as mine. 

 

Well if Pope Francis ever kisses the hand of Bishop Fellay and offers up Mass with him I'll send you $50, or donate it to your favorite charity. 

 

As for the actually kissing of Father Foggia's hand and offering Mass with him I really don't know what to think other than to put this in the column of 'curious/confusing Pope Francis moments'. People saying he did this out of good will or those that say he did so out of ill will also just seem to be guessing. 

[arfink]

Well if Pope Francis ever kisses the hand of Bishop Fellay and offers up Mass with him I'll send you $50, or donate it to your favorite charity. 

 

As for the actually kissing of Father Foggia's hand and offering Mass with him I really don't know what to think other than to put this in the column of 'curious/confusing Pope Francis moments'. People saying he did this out of good will or those that say he did so out of ill will also just seem to be guessing. 

 

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

The fact that people have cameras everywhere the ability to instantly broadcast whatever they want on the internet just makes speculation go completely bonkers.
 

[Basilisa Marie]

Nah, I think Donatism helps illustrate the idea that we can't just kick out everyone who isn't good enough at being Catholic.  "Excommunicate the heretic!" seems like such a common reaction to anyone who isn't in line with Church teaching. And yeah, we shouldn't abolish excommunication, sometimes we need it when there's really no other way to deal with a person. The whole "the Church wants you back" seems to get lost in the rhetoric surrounding excommunication. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Does the pope, as the supreme pastor, not have a very serious obligation to point out and correct heresy? 

Not only for the sake of the heretic himself, but also for all the faithful who may be misled by his heresy.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Nihil Obstat

[arfink]

Does the pope, as the supreme pastor, not have a very serious obligation to point out and correct heresy? 

Not only for the sake of the heretic himself, but also for all the faithful who may be misled by his heresy.

 

He does, but in this particular instance we don't know anything about whether the pope did or did not say other things to this priest. He could have, and we would never know and likely never will. That he treated him with human respect doesn't mean he condones heresy.

[Nihil Obstat]

He does, but in this particular instance we don't know anything about whether the pope did or did not say other things to this priest. He could have, and we would never know and likely never will. That he treated him with human respect doesn't mean he condones heresy.

But there is a dimension to this, a very serious one, besides his private contact with this priest. As I said, a matter of heresy is not simply between the heretic and God. It necessarily involves the whole Church.

[arfink]

But there is a dimension to this, a very serious one, besides his private contact with this priest. As I said, a matter of heresy is not simply between the heretic and God. It necessarily involves the whole Church.

 

So, that means that we get to decide the pope was wrong, and instead of having private words with him and saying mass, he should have excommunicated him and thrown him out?

 

I dunno Nihil. It's one thing to have feelings about this, it's entirely another to question the supreme pontiff's pastoral methods.

[Nihil Obstat]

So, that means that we get to decide the pope was wrong, and instead of having private words with him and saying mass, he should have excommunicated him and thrown him out?

 

I dunno Nihil. It's one thing to have feelings about this, it's entirely another to question the supreme pontiff's pastoral methods.

I am questioning nothing and deciding nothing. I am simply a little perturbed by the fact that Pope Francis concelebrated Mass with a priest who advocates a particularly vile heresy, but has not seen fit to make any mention of that heresy.

Perturbed is a pretty good word for it. Restless perhaps even better.