St. Peter's Tomb In Jerusalem?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]Bruce says:[/b]
Grin, there were some great stories about Popes that tried this one, the shadow trick and the outcomes...grin. Again, it is the FAITH not just the shadow, [b]you focus upon the THING not the INNER change[/b] that these passages indicate.[/quote]

You need to read "Swear to God" by Scott Hahn, big time

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Anchored on the grave of the apostle, the first St. Peter's Basilica incorporated the original shrine into the altar floor. But twelve hundred years later, when the first basilica was replaced, the details of Peter's burial had been forgotten.[/quote]

here's what I don't get...how could they forget?

its the reason they built it!

his shrine was part of the FLOOR!!!

thats a little TOO iffy for me.

12 centuries or 12 millenia...you can't forget something like that.

just think about it...don't respond because I'm not catholic and I don't agree with it...THINK about what the paragraph is saying...

THEY FORGOT?!?!!

God bless.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 9 2004, 10:55 PM']
here's what I don't get...how could they forget?

its the reason they built it!

his shrine was part of the FLOOR!!!

thats a little TOO iffy for me.

12 centuries or 12 millenia...you can't forget something like that.

just think about it...don't respond because I'm not catholic and I don't agree with it...THINK about what the paragraph is saying...

THEY FORGOT?!?!!

God bless. [/quote]
The details were forgotten but not the basic belief that Peter was buried there. Read the next paragraph;

[quote]The Vatican had long held the tradition that Peter was buried under the basilica, but even as late as the 1930s, they didn't really have any proof.
[/quote]

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 9 2004, 11:53 AM'] Christianity should have - NOTHING WHATSOEVER - to do with "bones" of anyone, anywhere.

{Protestant Position}


Moses when HE died, in scripture, was buried by GOD, and HIS burial site is unknown, scripture has this to say about about Moses being buried.
[/quote]
But if Moses' bones (and saint bones in general) were not important why then did the Archangel Michael fight with the devil over Moses' body?

[quote]Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment  upon him but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!" Jude 1:9 [/quote]


And if,

[quote]Christianity should have - NOTHING WHATSOEVER - to do with "bones" of anyone, anywhere.

{Protestant Position}[/quote]


Then why did the early Church build their churches on the graves of saints, or where they not "Christian"?

[Bruce S]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Jun 10 2004, 12:13 AM'] But if Moses' bones (and saint bones in general) were not important why then did the Archangel Michael fight with the devil over Moses' body?

Then why did the early Church build their churches on the graves of saints, or where they not "Christian"?

QUOTE 
Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment  upon him but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!" Jude 1:9 


[/quote]
I take this passage in JUDE as a PROHIBITION against false teachings, and that INCLUDED the desire of MEN to Venerate bones, erect shrines to Men, God sent the Archangel Michael to STOP the bones from being used in worship.

Noice that the passage PRECEDEDS with these verses:

[quote]Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, [b]ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.[/b]


Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.[/quote]


[quote] Jude is saying that these teachings give way to allowing one to believe that they can have the best of both worlds without fear of losing Christ. The message of God through Christ Jesus is one thing only, the world and death, or God and life.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jude goes on here to say that even though he is making it known to them that there are false teachings amongst them, he is not going to judge them or make direct accusations to them. He will simply point out that some among them are teaching falsely and those that are doing so once knew the truth. And those that desire to leave that teaching are free to do.

Jude speaks of Michael the Archangel, we find only one other reference to the word Archangel in the Bible and that is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Jude says that even Michael one of the highest angels left the rebuking or judging to God. And this is what Jude will do, he will bring them into remembrance of what they should already know and he will make them aware of the deceitful ones in their midst, but he will not judge them.

Zechariah 3:1-2 speaks also of letting God be the judge. Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Jude goes on to say that these false teachers, have no shame, they go on and on teaching those things that are not of God. They step into the realm of the unknown and savor it and lust after it casting aside that which they know to be right. They throw away that which is natural and pleasing in the eyes of God for the occasional pleasure of sin. They look only at what is before them, not at what is to come. This way sin creeps into your life. It starts out in such a small innocent manner and then before long it has taken over your life. [/quote]

But the END RESULT, is the bones of Moses remained hidden, and NO SHRINE can be erected over his 'grave' [although the Catholic Church has one there, in a place that 'represents' his gravesite, but that too is just speculation, and guessing]

Context helps a lot in coming to see what a passage seems to indicate.

Edited June 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

This is Mt. Nebo, Catholic Shrine erected to honor where they believe Moses was buried. Not the VERY STRANGE 'cross' erected there.

The figure in the pic, is JP II.

If anyone, like me, is deeply into symbols, that cross sends shivers up one's spine.

[img]http://servus.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/fai/nbimage/Papa2.jpg[/img]

If God wanted Moses's grave ANONYMOUS, why is this shrine even there? We have two passages that clearly indicate that Moses's bones should NOT be venerated, nor his burial site known, NOR made into a tourist destination.

My Protestant, bible reading, two cents on this matter. FWIW.

Peace.

Edited June 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Aloysius]

i like that cross, it reminds me of the bronze serpent

but anyway, the fact that we don't know for certain that this is Moses' grave prooves that we're not obsessing over the BONES but are giving honor to the person. Your scripture does not say not to honor Moses for the great things he did. Our Scripture clearly tells us to call these things to mind remembering the great things the Lord has done for His people.

[theculturewarrior]

I apologize if this has already been posted, but I'm a little hot under the collar right now.

To quote GK Chesterton..."A legend is written by the majority of the people in the village who are sane. A book is written by the one man in the village who is mad."

How does this theory that Peter was buried in Jerusalem account for the fact that the See of Rome was recognized as the See of Peter by the Early Church? Find me one Church Father who disputed this. The tradition of St. Peter's tomb was carefully preserved by the Early Church, on down to our times. A culture that venerates relics pays attention to the details of the the First Pope's burial place. And the WHOLE WORLD knew it! This is just revisionist history at its worst.

Edited June 10, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 9 2004, 12:53 PM'] Christianity should have - NOTHING WHATSOEVER - to do with "bones" of anyone, anywhere.

{Protestant Position}

We are a LIVING religion, fascination with dead things is something best avoided. [/quote]
Again...

Would this include grave yards? Maybe we all should be cremated instead and dumped into the sea.

[theculturewarrior]

Why bother cremating them? They're dead. Feed em to the sharks. (Especially the apostles? )

[the lumberjack]

from dust you were created, and to the dust you shall return.

these bodies profit us nothing in the afterlife...so why even bother burying them?

God will resurrect in our new, glorified bodies, will He not?

then what difference does it make what you do with this empty shell once I die?

bury me, cremate me, feed me to sharks...it doesn't matter.

personally, I want to be one of those SUPERCOOL skeletons in some 9th grade biology class.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 10 2004, 02:21 PM'] from dust you were created, and to the dust you shall return.

these bodies profit us nothing in the afterlife...so why even bother burying them?

God will resurrect in our new, glorified bodies, will He not?

then what difference does it make what you do with this empty shell once I die?

bury me, cremate me, feed me to sharks...it doesn't matter.

personally, I want to be one of those SUPERCOOL skeletons in some 9th grade biology class.  [/quote]
So you aren't offended by the 4 Americans who bodies were dragged in Fallujah, Iraq? It is only an outer-shell, it profits nothing (by what you say).

[Aloysius]

you're body is the temple of the Holy Spirit

just because you leave it doesn't mean it should be disrespected or defaced

IT will be resurected on the last day, God will RESTORE IT, He's not creating you a whole new body but restoring and glorifying the one you had on earth

with God nothing is impossible

PAX

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 10 2004, 12:36 PM'] you're body is the temple of the Holy Spirit

just because you leave it doesn't mean it should be disrespected or defaced

IT will be resurected on the last day, God will RESTORE IT, He's not creating you a whole new body but restoring and glorifying the one you had on earth

with God nothing is impossible

PAX [/quote]
so does the Holy Spirit still reside in your body when you are dead?

are you still in your body when you are dead?

are you saying that God will perfect this corrupt vessel? and that we will not have new bodies, as the bible says we will?

will God resurrect the ashes and mildew that lay in your coffin? or will your spirit be caught up in the heavens with Him, in a body that is incorruptable?

and Amen, with God nothing is impossible.

---------

and Paladin,

it wasn't the fact that they were dragging the bodies thru the streets, it was the fact the bodies were of Americans they had killed. it wasn't the body, it was the action that outraged people.

we shouldn't do anything like that to their bodies, but we shouldn't treat the body like the person is still in it..or that it will be anything more than wormfood once the pine box drops.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Jun 10 2004, 02:45 PM'] we shouldn't do anything like that to their bodies, but we shouldn't treat the body like the person is still in it..or that it will be anything more than wormfood once the pine box drops. [/quote]
And who has said that the St. Peter is still in his remains? No one. We remember what they once were, one of those ways is by preserving their remains. Just as one barries their loved one in a grave yard, and visits their loved one every now and then.

Also, I would be outraged (including everyone in the funeral home), if some stranger were to talk in, and drag my grandfather out of his cassock, and left him on the sidewalk (even though he's already dead). It's an indignity.