St. Peter's Tomb In Jerusalem?

[DojoGrant]

This is the only website I could easily find on the subject, but I have heard it many times from Protestants, the statement that Peter's tomb was found in Jerusalem.

[url="http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm"]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm[/url]

Why does this not come out more? Why has the Church not disproved this? I can't find a Catholic refutation of it, which worries me a bit.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
6/7 - Tenth Monday

DojoGrant,

I'm able to give a rather simple and somewhat arbitrary refutation of this: I have seen St. Peter's tomb in Rome with my own two peepers.

More apologetically, one can go on a tour of the catacombs underneath St. Peter's Basilica (called the "Scavi Tour") and see a number of inscriptions on and around the altar built in the 2nd century AD over the tomb of St. Peter that basically say, "GAIVS IBI ERAT - SS. PETRVM ET PAVLVM, OPN" - Gaius was here - Sts. Peter and Paul, pray for us. People at that time would not have inscribed these things had St. Peter not been at that site.

Also, there is "corraboratory evidence," if you will, at the Catacombs of San Sebastiano just outside of Rome. While there, I saw a number of inscriptions along the same lines as the ones at the Scavi Tour; these are dated to the twenty years when the remains of Peter and Paul were housed in those catacombs during the early persecutions. Hope this helps.

Yours,
Pio Nono

[DojoGrant]

I appreciate the answer, but I kinda already knew that much. I have read a book on the subject of the excavation at St. Peter's Bascillica. I'm just curious as to this other tomb which claims to be of "Simon Bar Jonah," which Protestants use to claim is the real tomb. I'm looking rather to see a Catholic official acknowledge what is a REAL burial site and say why it is not authentic.

Should I just assume there exists no refutation?

[dUSt]

Moving this to the Debate Table as it requires an extended answer...

[Aloysius]

we discussed this question in open mic a lil bit...

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=13421"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=13421[/url]

[Bruce S]

The "bones" of Peter, have at least TWICE been discarded, in favor of NEW BONES of Peter.

The Catholic Church claims now to REALLY have the right bones, AND it claims to have the HEAD of Peter too, which has been on display at St. John Lateran's with Paul's head.

So, if they wanted to DISPROVE the skeptics, run a DNA scan on the new bones, against the skull bone and see if they match.

So far, they have not done this obvious crosscheck.

Grin.

Having had the real bones, followed by new real bones, finally with the newest real bones.

You could understand the reluctance to PROVE anything.

Traditions are much more fun without demanding scientific corroboration.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

[url="http://www.ucd.ie/classics/96/Curran96.html"]http://www.ucd.ie/classics/96/Curran96.html[/url]

[url="http://sxws.com/charis/relics10.htm"]http://sxws.com/charis/relics10.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0629a-almanac.htm"]http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0629a-almanac.htm[/url]

Edited June 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[MC Just]

You know, just like our Lady of Guadelupe, these people are always trying to trash us. They claim the tilma is fake and now they are claiming that the Vatican may or may not have the real bones of Saint Peter. Whatever... The Protestants have "Their own"(as usual) site where they claim new testament events happened, and the place's where we claim the same events happened are declared false. I'm sorry buy I don't buy one bit of it. I believe the Holy Spirit is alive and at work in our church.


(Catholic Encyclopedia)

When the Church was once more at peace under Constantine, Christians were able at last to provide themselves with edifices suitable for the celebration of Divine Service, and the places so long hallowed as the resting places of the relics of the Apostles were naturally among the first to be selected as the sites of great basilicas. The emperor himself not only supplied the funds for these buildings, in his desire to honour the memories of the two Apostles, but actually assisted in the work of building with his own hands. At St. Paul's, where the tomb had remained in its original condition of a simple vault, no difficulty presented itself, and the high altar was erected over the vault. The inscription, dating from this period, "Paulo Apostolo Martyri", may still be seen in its place under the altar. At St. Peter's, however, the matter was complicated by the fact that Pope St. Anacletus, in the first century, had built an upper chamber or memoria above the vault. This upper chamber had become endeared to the Romans during the ages of persecution, and they were unwilling that it should be destroyed. In order to preserve it a singular and unique feature was given to the basilica in the raised platform of the apse and the Chapel of the Confession underneath. The extreme reverence in which the place has always been held has resulted in these arrangements remaining almost unchanged even to the present time, in spite of the rebuilding of the church. Only, the actual vault itself in which the body lies is no longer accessible and has not been so since the ninth century. There are those, however, who think that it would not be impossible to find the entrance and to reopen it once more. A unanimous request that this should be done was made to Leo XIII by the International Archaeological Congress in 1900, but, so far, without result.

Saint Peter's bones and tomb have always been in rome, despite the claims, about jerusalem or whether or not they are the real bones. Man anti-Catholics go really far in their attacks huh?

Edited June 9, 2004 by MC Just

[Bruce S]

Christianity should have - NOTHING WHATSOEVER - to do with "bones" of anyone, anywhere.

{Protestant Position}

We are a LIVING religion, fascination with dead things is something best avoided.

The entire battle over the bones, derives from the desire of the Catholic Church to establish primogenicy over Christianity.

Thus, the authenticity of so called "relics and bones" is really of interest to those within the Catholic Church, and those who ask the Catholic Church to establish some facts, rather than these shifting TRADITIONS that seem to change, be accepted, discarded, re-established, moved, redefined, EVOLVED and DOCTINAL creeping.

I just find it all very fascinating, to be, an observer, and a commentarian on some of these relic issues.

Moses when HE died, in scripture, was buried by GOD, and HIS burial site is unknown, scripture has this to say about about Moses being buried.

[quote]
Deuteronomy 34 - NIV


The Death of Moses

1 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land-from Gilead to Dan, 2 all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, [1] 3 the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."

[b]5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him [2] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. [/b]7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over. [/quote]

It seems to ME, that God has decided about anonymous burial sites, and didn't want a TEMPLE or SHRINE erected.

We would do well to follow that example.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[the lumberjack]

^


like a breath of fresh air!

[MC Just]

Wrong again bruce. i hate ignorance. If you take a look at the comparison of the Pope and Peter, in Matthew, you can see that Peter was pulled to the side, called Rock, had the Church built upon him and was given the keys to the Kingdom. We call that Primacy over Christianity. But no instead selfish individuals wanna take the keys and authority into their own hands. The Pope is playing the exact role Christ gave peter to play.

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are exceptions to the rule).

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. What other man has walked on water? This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

Isa. 22:19 - Shebna is described as having an "office" and a "station." An office has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called father or papa of God's people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.

Edited June 9, 2004 by MC Just

[MC Just]

As for Relics:


Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ's dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord's body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ's body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus' grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord's body.

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ's cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul's handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha's bones bring a man back to life. The saints' bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Wrong again bruce. i hate ignorance. If you take a look at the comparison of the Pope and Peter, in Matthew, you can see that Peter was pulled to the side, called Rock, had the Church built upon him and was given the keys to the Kingdom. [/quote]

What does THAT have to do with RELICS? Besides {Protestant Position} the "Rock" - Petro's WAS THE CONFESSION OF FAITH in Jesus as the Messiah, not the person of Peter.

[quote]

As for Relics:


Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ's dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord's body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ's body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus' grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord's body.  [/quote]

These have nothing to DO with relics. Jesus was GONE, the spices are GONE, the wrappings are gone, and we have various people claiming this or that site for the TOMB, but the TOMB is just an EMPTY place, with NO ONE there, our Lord is Risen, and the MISSING/RISEN Lord is the basis of our faith, not some PLACE. Sorry.

[quote]Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ's cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.[/quote]

No, it was Jesus, NOT his hem that healed her, again, you are placing the emphasis on the THING, where AGAIN, it was the FAITH of the woman that healed her, reread that ENTIRE passage, and try again to tie it to the THING, where it wasn't, the passage actually explains itself VERY nicely.

Here:

20Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21She said to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed."

22Jesus turned and saw her.[b] [color=red]"Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment[/color]. [/b]
23When Jesus

[quote]Acts 19:11-12 - Paul's handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.[/quote]

What does that one have to do with RELICS? Yes, this passage does indicate that the power to HEAL, granted to the Apostles {not transferrable} did, in fact, have a role in healing. BUT you need to look at the ENTIRE section, immediately after the hankie healings, we see that things went terribly wrong too:

[quote]11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding. [/quote]

That seems to indicate, that the powers were not really universal, and messing around with the gifts, given to the apostles would have adverse repercussions.


[quote]Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.[/quote]

Grin, there were some great stories about Popes that tried this one, the shadow trick and the outcomes...grin. Again, it is the FAITH not just the shadow, you focus upon the THING not the INNER change that these passages indicate.

[quote]Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.[/quote]

Souls IN HEAVEN, beneath the "heavenly altar" [which by the way, is the body of FAITH] is hardly moldering bones here on earth. Very poor exegesis.

[quote]2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha's bones bring a man back to life. The saints' bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.
[/quote]

Again, ALTARS were elimated by Jesus, but restored by those that tried to recreate the Jewish temple system, and IF... bones of Mayrters COULD "reliably heal" we would have very clear, frequent use of them, and even the Catholic priests AND exorcists don't USE bones and fragments of bodies in these matters.

Again, you have people here that don't subscribe to the Catholic "distinctives" so don't expect us to agree with the pluck and pull out manner upon with entire doctrines have been established.

Best, and Pax.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Bruce S

[Archangel]

Here is an article from National Geographic: [url="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/11/1118_vaticanbasilica.html"]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...anbasilica.html[/url]

Inside the Vatican: St. Peter's Basilica

St. Peter's Basilica is a monument to Peter whom Jesus tapped as the chief apostle, declaring that Peter was the rock on which he would build the church.

Because Rome was the capital of the empire, Peter, along with the apostle Paul, came to the city to spread the faith, early in the first millennium.

But early Christians were often persecuted for their beliefs and, according to church tradition, in A.D. 64, the apostle Peter was arrested, brought to one of the great imperial circuses in Rome and martyred on an inverted cross.

His body was taken outside the walls of the arena and there, on the side of what was called the Vatican Hill, he was buried, perhaps in a small roofed grave.

Almost three hundred years later, Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome, declared that a great church be built on the site of the tomb of St. Peter which had evolved from a simple grave to a small shrine.

Anchored on the grave of the apostle, the first St. Peter's Basilica incorporated the original shrine into the altar floor. But twelve hundred years later, when the first basilica was replaced, the details of Peter's burial had been forgotten.

The Vatican had long held the tradition that Peter was buried under the basilica, but even as late as the 1930s, they didn't really have any proof.

Then, in 1939, workers renovating the grottoes beneath St. Peter's, the traditional burial area of the popes, made a stunning find. Just below the floor level, they discovered an ancient Roman grave. It soon became clear that there wasn't just one grave, but an entire city of the dead.

After many months of digging, the excavators came to a section of older graves, near the area underneath the high altar. Directly beneath the altar, they found a large burial site and a wall painted red. In a niche connected to that wall, they found the bones of a man.

More than 20 years later, in 1968, Pope Paul VI announced that those bones belonged to St. Peter.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 9 2004, 12:53 PM'] Christianity should have - NOTHING WHATSOEVER - to do with "bones" of anyone, anywhere.

{Protestant Position}

We are a LIVING religion, fascination with dead things is something best avoided. [/quote]
Would this include grave yards? Maybe we all should be cremated instead and dumped into the sea.