Regnum Christi/ Legionaries Of Christ

[Perigrina]

I went to a Regnum Christi sponsored event yesterday that I enjoyed.  I have done various retreats/activities with them over the years and always been favorably impressed.  I was wondering if people nowadays consider vocations with them, after there were such terrible revelations about their founder.  They are now in a period of renewal under the supervision of a papal delegate.

 

Here is a link to the group's history: http://www.regnumchristi.org/english/articulos/categoria.phtml?se=359&ca=996  There is a description of these issues starting at 2006.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Perigrina

[NotreDame]

I'm not surprised you were impressed by these events you've attended.  These are people very experienced at recruiting and wooing the most educated, connected, and wealthy of Catholics.  Yet anything truly good that they offer is simply a Catholic good, universal to the whole Church.  They are not like the Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans, Carmelites, etc. with unique charisms from God.  Groups like the LC/RC are not all that unique in the latter half of the 20th century.  The turmoil in the general church, especially post-Vii, has created a fertile recruiting ground of for these sects.

 

That RC telling of its own history you linked to leaves a lot out - which by itself is a big problem and a good indication that issues still exist and run deeper than just the scandal of a corrupt founder.  There were problems with Maciel before his ordination and problems with the legion going back to Pope Pius XII:

 

http://www.andersonadvocates.com/Files/37/Timeline-of-Father-Marcial-Maciel-Degollado

 

The issues with the RC/LC generally relate to their Charism (ie. their purpose), constitution, and their understandings of the evangelical counsels (ie. everything that makes a religious order a religious order.)  Despite the death of their founder and the Church investigation/intervention, there have been no substantitve changes to any of these yet.  This article touches on that a bit:

 

http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/01/legion-reformed

 

And here is a blog from one of the first RC's to leave and speak out about the issues:

 

http://www.life-after-rc.com/

[Perigrina]

I am not interested in debating whether RC should have been given official approval after the Vatican investigation. The Church has made her decision.  I'm asking, given that they do have official approval, whether anyone considers a vocation with them. 

[NotreDame]

Let's be clear that the RC/LC were given official approval prior to the recent intervention.  Since the abuse scandal came to light, the Church under Cardinal De Paolis has attempted to make some reforms to the LC (which by De Paolis' own admission is still a work in progress) but I don't believe they've straightened out the canonical situation of the RC or even begun a formal process (the "life after RC" site I linked to willhave more on this.)  Once thing I am certain of: since the intervention, there has been no bill of clean health issued by the Vatican for the RC. 

 

This is a reminder that discerners need to be on guard regardless of whether a group/order appears to have support from the Church.  The RC/LC certainly had vatican approval and support during the peak of its abuse and corruption.

 

It's not clear from your statement what exactly you are interested in but that's not wholly relevant.  There are many young readers of VS, members and lurkers.  If you are going to promote such a troubled group and link to their very dishonest site then expect some cautionary statements from other members.

Edited May 18, 2014 by NotreDame

[Perigrina]

I am interested in discovering whether people who are discerning a vocation automatically dismiss a movement whose founder is guilty of "gravely reprehensible actions" (according to their own website) or do they nevertheless consider it.  I am not promoting anything.  The views which you have expressed in this thread seem more appropriate to a debate.  If you are aware of some official prohibition against joining RC/LofC that would be relevant, but your comments merely seem to be second guessing the work of the papal legate.  His statements are available to anyone who wishes to know the status of the group.

[NotreDame]

I am interested in discovering whether people who are discerning a vocation automatically dismiss a movement whose founder is guilty of "gravely reprehensible actions" (according to their own website) or do they nevertheless consider it.  I am not promoting anything.  The views which you have expressed in this thread seem more appropriate to a debate.  If you are aware of some official prohibition against joining RC/LofC that would be relevant, but your comments merely seem to be second guessing the work of the papal legate.  His statements are available to anyone who wishes to know the status of the group.

 

I am interested in discovering whether people who are discerning a vocation automatically dismiss a movement whose founder is guilty of "gravely reprehensible actions" (according to their own website) or do they nevertheless consider it. 

 

I did not consider it in my discernment because the information was not immediately available, but I wish I would have.  Issues with a founder strike at the core of an institute and should matter to any discerner.

 

I am not promoting anything. 

 

Yes, you are.  You are saying you enjoyed their activities and you are linking to the group's website.

 

The views which you have expressed in this thread seem more appropriate to a debate. 

 

Not at all, I'm encouraging caution to readers and giving links to additional resources that are a bit more objective than the RC homepage. 

 

If you are aware of some official prohibition against joining RC/LofC that would be relevant, but your comments merely seem to be second guessing the work of the papal legate. 

 

I'm not second-guessing anything.  I'm clarifying what he has done so far so nobody mistakes it for something it's not, as you did.

[freedomreigns]

I agree with ND on this one.  Someone could consider a vocation with RC or LC, but the problems these groups have faced are certainly not to be discounted in that process.  I personally would not recommend it.  Also, just because they have not been suppressed does not mean that the community is healthy.  

[Perigrina]

 

I am interested in discovering whether people who are discerning a vocation automatically dismiss a movement whose founder is guilty of "gravely reprehensible actions" (according to their own website) or do they nevertheless consider it. 

 

I did not consider it in my discernment because the information was not immediately available, but I wish I would have.  Issues with a founder strike at the core of an institute and should matter to any discerner.

 

I am not promoting anything. 

 

Yes, you are.  You are saying you enjoyed their activities and you are linking to the group's website.

 

The views which you have expressed in this thread seem more appropriate to a debate. 

 

Not at all, I'm encouraging caution to readers and giving links to additional resources that are a bit more objective than the RC homepage. 

 

If you are aware of some official prohibition against joining RC/LofC that would be relevant, but your comments merely seem to be second guessing the work of the papal legate. 

 

I'm not second-guessing anything.  I'm clarifying what he has done so far so nobody mistakes it for something it's not, as you did.

 

 

I linked to their website to show that they themselves acknowledge that their founder is guilty of gravely reprehensible actions.  That is hardly promoting them.

 

The links you gave are not objective.  They are biased against RC.  One of them was remarkably critical and negative about Pope John Paul II which reduces its credibility as far I'm concerned.

 

I am not mistaken in thinking that they are a group that has done good work.  Nor am I mistaken that officially they are cooperating with a renewal under the supervision of a papal representative.  Therefore they meet the requirements for being discussed on this forum. 

 

 

[Perigrina]

I agree with ND on this one.  Someone could consider a vocation with RC or LC, but the problems these groups have faced are certainly not to be discounted in that process.  I personally would not recommend it.  Also, just because they have not been suppressed does not mean that the community is healthy.  

 

I am feeling frustrated by the direction of this thread.  I was not asking about what people think others should do.  I am asking people to share about their personal process of discernment.  Has anyone seriously considered RC or has anyone consciously dismissed it due to its history?

 

If people want to discuss their views of RC, it seems to me that belongs in a subforum that allows debate.
 

[petitpèlerin]

I have not considered RC but I have discerned with a community after serious issues relating to the founder were made public. Those issues remain at the level of allegations which cannot be proven, or tried, since they came up after the founder was deceased, but it is certain that there was no sexual activity involved, no illegitimate children, no double life, etc. as there was with Fr Maciel. It's not even certain that there was any wrongdoing, it's just allegations and could just be misunderstandings of intentions. It's a different situation and nowhere near at the level as what Fr Maciel did and what RC/LoC are dealing with.

 

I am still discerning with this community, I'm riding out the situation as the community goes through the process of dealing with it and hopefully resolving it someday. I see good foundations and good fruits in this community and this situation hasn't scared me away, especially now that there's good reason to believe that the allegations may not necessarily have as much credibility as they were first believed to have.

 

I don't know what I would do if it were RC I were interested in, since it's a much more problematic situation. I wouldn't necessarily dismiss them because of their troubles but I would certainly do my own research very carefully, follow every step the Church makes about it, and stay on top of it. And if I wanted to discern with them, if I felt that tug to their spirituality and work even with a realistic awareness of their troubles, I would ask members of the community what they think of it, see how realistic they seem about it, see how willing they are to be obedient to the Church's investigation, etc.

 

One thing I've learned talking to members of my own community about their own troubles is how important it is for the members of the community to receive and understand communications and accept advisement from the proper authorities in the Church. The Church is very prudent and wants the good of all her members, especially communities who exist to love and serve Christ. When other members of the community, including superiors, interfere in any way with the Church's communications with any part of the community, that's a problem. I don't know RC at all, I don't know if that goes on or not, just something to maybe look into, how well the members are informed about and obedient to the Church on the matter.

Edited May 18, 2014 by petitpèlerin

[NotreDame]

I linked to their website to show that they themselves acknowledge that their founder is guilty of gravely reprehensible actions.  That is hardly promoting them.

 

The links you gave are not objective.  They are biased against RC.  One of them was remarkably critical and negative about Pope John Paul II which reduces its credibility as far I'm concerned.

 

I am not mistaken in thinking that they are a group that has done good work.  Nor am I mistaken that officially they are cooperating with a renewal under the supervision of a papal representative.  Therefore they meet the requirements for being discussed on this forum.

 

I linked to their website to show that they themselves acknowledge that their founder is guilty of gravely reprehensible actions.  That is hardly promoting them.

 

It is by definition "promotion."  The RC site is not forthright.  It acknowledges very little of what has been uncovered about Maciel's life and leaves out investigations that go back to Pope Pius XII

 

 

The links you gave are not objective.  They are biased against RC.   

 

The RC site you linked to, in addition to providing an incomplete history, is not objective on the subject of the RC by definition. 

 

As for my links, "First Things" can be considered an objective, trustworthy Catholic publication.  The other site "Life After RC" is from an ex-RC and - unlike any RC/LC sites, allows comments to support multiple viewpoints.   The timeline of RC/LC past is from a law firm that takes up many abuse cases.  I find many of these abuse organizations have become jaded and anti-Catholic (eg. SNAP), but at least the timeline is accurate.

 

One of them was remarkably critical and negative about Pope John Paul II which reduces its credibility as far I'm concerned.

 

St JP does deserve criticism for how his administration (especially Sodano and his personal secretary Dsiwisz) dealt with Maciel and the LC's.  Were he alive and of sound mind he would be the first to admit that.  After all, St JP2 called the drug-abusing pedophile an "efficacious guide to youth".  Obviously he would like to have that one back.

 

We aren't Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses.  Our faith and Church is strong enough to be honest and objective about itself.  Many in the Church sinned protecting Maciel and the corruption of the LC's.   If we love truth we need to acknowledge that.

 

I am feeling frustrated by the direction of this thread.  I was not asking about what people think others should do.  I am asking people to share about their personal process of discernment.

 

You shouldn't be shocked when a thread here veers ever so slightly from it's original topic ;)

 

If people want to discuss their views of RC, it seems to me that belongs in a subforum that allows debate.

 

Well, maybe you've never seen VS threads on consecrated virginity, but rest assured that debates do take place on this forum.  I'm not attempting to debate.  I'm sharing information about the RC/LC that was left off of their webpage.  I personally have a big issue with these troubled congregations that, while recruiting heavily, are so reticent about their past.

 

It's also pertinent to take into account the life of the founder.  It's the founder who brings the charism to the congregation.  If the establishment of the congregation is the will of God, then we can reasonably assume the charism is inspired by the Spirit.  If the establishment is merely the will of the founder, then we can make no such assumption. 

 

Looking at the life of Maciel, is it reasonable to believe that this man would have been a vehicle of the Holy Spirit?  Reviewing his history, I think a better question is when was the last time Maciel was in the state of grace and open to the spirit himself?  He was suspected of pedophilia going back to at least to his seminary days - kicked out of a seminary, in fact and ordained only because his Uncle was a Bishop.  Forced to step down in the 50's by Pope Pius XII.  He even refused last rites and absolution from LC priests while living with his mistress!!! 

 

These are reasonable questions to ponder if one is considering taking vows with a group founded by this man. 

[Perigrina]

It is very clearly stated that this forum should not used for debates.  I intend to respect that whatever happens in other threads.  This means that I cannot respond to points that you, Notredame, are making with which I disagree.  You have made your opinion on RC clear.  Please stop derailing this thread.

 

I wish to express my appreciation for petitpèlerin's post.  It was exactly the sort of response I was hoping for and I found it very helpful.  I hope others will share about how this issue has played out in their personal experience of discernment.

[cmaD2006]

Perigrina -- NotreDame's comments are appropriate given the situation with RC/LoC.  And at least both points of view have been presented, which is always a good thing.

 

And ... he isn't debating (at least I didn't take it as such, especially at the beginning).  He presented a 2nd view, which given the circumstances are warranted.  If any debating started it would have been after his initial comment.  That wasn't a debate -- just a statement of facts. 

 

Finally Perigrina of course there are two sides of the story, and (as I like to say) the full truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.  You can't have the full truth listening to one side of the story, and full discernment really needs both.

 

That being said -- I will say this.  Anyone discerning with RC/LoC really, really needs to do a lot of prayer and discernment because the community is in a bit of flux.  They just had a General Chapter, and they are obviously still recovering from the issue pertaining to the founder. 

[beatitude]

Peregrina,

 

I met an LC priest several years before the news about Fr Maciel became public. He was invited to our university chaplaincy by the student leaders of our vocations group to give a talk. He also offered confessions and the chance for students to speak to him one-to-one. I was only nineteen, quite shy and naive, and easily swayed by anyone who promised an orthodox and authentic Catholic life - but even I left my one-on-one chat with him with alarm bells ringing. He reminded me of a salesman. He gave a very slick presentation on Regnum Christi, encouraged me to contact the RC consecrated women, told me I had a genuine vocation and he could 'see it', and implied subtly that I would be displeasing God if I didn't take his advice. He also asked a personal question that I considered quite inappropriate coming from someone I'd only met fifteen minutes ago - "How's your purity?" - and it struck me as odd that this was the one question he asked about my way of life, the one virtue he considered relevant enough to enquire after. I was seriously unsettled by the whole thing. And when the storm broke over RC, I was not surprised at all. Many things were revealed that corresponded exactly with my experience on that day. My caution about this group preceded the bad news about Fr Maciel.

 

A few weeks ago, on Palm Sunday, I met an absolutely lovely RC priest. I am not saying that everyone in the group is going to be a high-pressure salesman, because obviously they are not. But I would still tread very carefully with them - the problem was not just with Fr Maciel's actions, but with the culture of the community, which had many cult-like features. I think it will take time for that to be corrected.

[Perigrina]

I think that I may have made an error in judgment that is causing most of the posts to fail to address what I need from this thread.  In my attempt to create a neutral and non-judgmental thread in which people could be comfortable sharing their personal experiences of considering RC, I left out some information.  I am close to someone who seems to be seriously considering becoming one of their Consecrated.  I have misgivings and concerns about this.  My attempt to talk to her about the problems with the founder did not go well. 

 

I have been hoping that hearing the perspective of discerners who have considered RC could give me some insights.  Instead, I am getting post after post that seems likely to discourage my intended responder from posting.  Somehow, I have given the impression that I am promoting RC and presenting their side of things and that people need to post about the problems with the group.  At this point, I find it unlikely that anyone who has considered RC will feel safe sharing about it publicly.  If there are people who are willing to share their experiences with me privately, please message me.