dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 the only authoritative type statements that i see that they can be saved are vatican ii. it could be argued that they didnt intend to define anything, and it's always possible to hope that noncahtolics would somehow repent or 'be shown an angel before death' or something as is traditionally the only way of getting saved. so when they say noncatholics 'may' be saved, it is a political statement loaded with far out possibilities while making it look like they actually have a shot. it's a political statement. there are lots of statements by popes that are not authoritative. rememebr it has to intentionally, be the pope, binding, the church, faith and morals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 this great article on no salvation outside... shows some examples of statements that are not authoritative. http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I would leave the Church if this were true...Some of the greatest christians I know aren't Catholic...Like I said if this were the case I would be gone so quick...And I would be obedient to the Holy Spirit as I left telling me to leave...With that said I understand the importance of becoming Cathoilic...But to Christians who are sincere in their walk with Christ and invisibly ignorant of the complete truth I dont for a second question their faith or their love for God...For someone like you Dairy who knows the complete truth though it's a different story...And it just intensifies it when you say right now what's holding you back from being Catholic is the fact non catholic christians wont not be saved because their non catholic as if it would be better if this were the case... Edited May 17, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 well, i wouldnt say it that way. that it would be better that they went to hell. im just saying the only way i can reconcile everything that has been taught, is to say the 'real' teaching is that they go to hell. and infants go to hell too. it's not a teaching i like, but it seems to be staring me in the face, that that could be what is true, if the catholic church is true. there is a certain irony in the two teachings that seemed to be contradictory are concerning salvation. in a way no one can be saved. flat out. but god is not bound by the rules, sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) That's why there is a Second Vatican Council to better understand the teachings...Not change them but to better understand them...This is led by the Holy Spirit...To the people who don't like it o well...God doesn't need anyone's approval to move how he chooses... Edited May 17, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 well it's ironic then. if the RCC came out and said noncatholics all go to hell, and infants go to hell too, that'd actually draw me closer to being a catholic. were they do it, it'd draw you to walking away, you say. id argue from what i see, that id be following the head, youd be following the heart. from what i can tell. truth isnt just about what you feel is right, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) So in order for you to become Catholic you need to hear all non catholics go to hell as well as infants...That's what stopping you now from joining...Interesting....In a really stupid way... Edited May 17, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 yes, it's all very interesting. and ironic on many levels.one big example is that i'm not a catholic, and the doctrine im conisdering per contradiction, is about the salvation of us noncatholics. not the subject, but the various teachings. but you cant deny the irony when you consider the substance involved. and these are not teachings i'm fond of on a personal level either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) You know the Catholic Church has the complete truth but you refuse to convert....That's risky business....What makes it even more riskier is how you try to trivialize Vatican 2 and question how the Holy Spirit has decided to move...Be careful not to make yourself an enemy of God... Edited May 17, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 The only way to be saved is within the Catholic Church. However, it is possible that some people are somehow joined to the Church without visibly being members. The thing is that, because it is not visible, it is not possible to ever know it has happened. God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful. We can put complete confidence in Him to save whoever ought to be saved. But nothing has been revealed about how people who are not visibly members of the Catholic can be saved. I think that the lack of revelation on this matter means that it should not have much influence on our daily lives.For all practical purposes, we need to live as if everyone should become Catholic. We need to evangelize with our words and our lives. We need to study, pray and prepare ourselves to be explain the Faith in whatever circumstances we find ourselves. We certainly do NOT gloat over anyone's loss of salvation. Here is an analogy: If you have a friend who needs a job, you give him the standard advice about applications and resumes. You do not tell him to walk his dog. (Supposedly David Boreanaz got his role in Buffy because somebody saw him walking his dog and thought he would be right for the part.) The theoretical possibility that somebody could get a job by walking his dog, does not affect our practical actions or advice. Similarly, if we hope for someone to be saved, we are not concerned with theoretical possibilities. We tell him to become Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) Protestants and Non denomational that are Baptized correctly in the Holy Trinity are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ... Edited May 17, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) But nothing has been revealed about how people who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church can be saved. Their Baptism and faith in Jesus Christ that's how... Edited May 17, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) Their Baptism and faith in Jesus Christ that's how... Protestants and Non denomational that are Baptized correctly in the Holy Trinity are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ... Could you please cite an authoritative source which states that non-Catholic Christians are saved by baptism and faith in Jesus Christ? Thank you. Edited May 17, 2014 by Perigrina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 It's in the Bible everywhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) the only authoritative type statements that i see that they can be saved are vatican ii. it could be argued that they didnt intend to define anything, and it's always possible to hope that noncahtolics would somehow repent or 'be shown an angel before death' or something as is traditionally the only way of getting saved. so when they say noncatholics 'may' be saved, it is a political statement loaded with far out possibilities while making it look like they actually have a shot. it's a political statement. there are lots of statements by popes that are not authoritative. rememebr it has to intentionally, be the pope, binding, the church, faith and morals Well the Bible outlines a lot of points on how Christians generally can be saved. Faith leads to transformation of the persons inner life and this leads to outward signs, such as good works of the spirit. My point of note is that I don't always see or sense this among alot of Catholics, but maybe that's a different thread. The issue Vatican ll brought up which is more contentious, at least for some, is the concept that we can hope that non Christians can also be saved. Although, at least to me, it seems the texts and later teachings apply where people never had a chance to receive or learn the value of the Gospel. I don't believe it advocated a 'many roads to God' universalist type ideology but some Catholics do interpret it this way and then use that view to downplay witness, evangelism etc etc. One of the criticsms I hear from some people is the brick church holds Catholics to a higher measure of what God desires than it does anyone else i.e other Christians and Religions are viewed with compassion and get an easy ride for ecumenical/ interreligious diaologue purposes. Due to this they refuse to follow the church rules where it's painful to them, such as divorce, homosexuality, confession, or issues around communion. Of course it's said that if you know the truth then you're under more responsibiluty than an ignorant person who doesn't. The truth hurts I guess! But this can seem cold in the realiy of daily life. The church has to deal with propositions, as lame as some may think they are, such as: Is it more compassionate, in theory with how the church declares things, to leave an Anglican or Jew as they are than weigh them down with becoming a Catholic? Will they transform in the spirit and feel Gods love enough so they can surpass the pain the 'Good news' may bring to them? Edited May 18, 2014 by Benedictus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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