Limbo, No Salvation For Noncatholics, And Becoming A Catholic

[Nihil Obstat]

Vatican II reclaimed and pronounced a profound truth. Let us submit our will and intellect to the Magisterium on this matter. Amen.

Just like Humanae Vitae, yes?

[Selah]

Makes me think of that Billt Joel song:

I'd rather love others with the sinners than hate with the saints.

 

Annnnnnd now it's stuck in my head. xD

[John Ryan]

Just like Humanae Vitae, yes?

 

Now, I wouldn't be much of a heretic if I weren't selective, now would I?  :nun3:

[Nihil Obstat]

At least you are honest about it, I guess.

[John Ryan]

At least you are honest about it, I guess.

 

I prefer loyal dissident to "heretic," but it would not have made for much of a joke. I am not rowdy and I do not cause separation. I fully take the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Clement to the Corinthians to heart. I make no pretense that everybody else has to submit to my authority. In all things I am the obedient lamb.

[Benedictus]

the notions that draw me to becoming a catholic, are being a catholic who believes that noncatholics cannot be saved, and who believes that nonbaptaized infants go to hell, or limbo. these types of catholics do exist, and are obedient to the pope. of course they are probably not very popular for their beliefs.

 

those are the notions primarily that i saw as being contradictions, but reading into them further, could be argued as the old teachings correct, and the 'new' stuff just fallible statements and modern fancies.

 

what are your thoughts?

 

I would say love of God should be the key thing, and then the quest for truth and to follow Christ (his spirit should be saying the same as the church). If you simply come to a religion or church for certain theological views or trends then I'd say you're building your house on sand. They are secondary considerations. In terms of limbo, and other propositions, these where theological ideas they come to be popular. But they weren't 'dogmatic', or even doctrine in many cases. Many things change in focus and emphasis as time moves on. Some doctrines and dogmas take time to come out clearly. As an example, Augustine developed the concept of 'orginal sin' (not agreed with by all theologians or churches either) and the Assumption of Mary was teased out even later (even more non catholics disagree with that). My advice would be to take the Bible (with a good commentary) seriously alongside the creed, the writings of the church fathers and then work on dveloping a faith and relationship with Jesus. Some of the more wooden aspects of the structural church (I see church as primarily people (and households) not structures) needs a heavy dose of wise thought, spiritual direction and, on some points, a pinch of salt.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Benedictus

[Perigrina]

Vatican II reclaimed and pronounced a profound truth. Let us submit our will and intellect to the Magisterium on this matter. Amen.

 

Some people are in the situation of perceiving different Magisterial teachings as contradicting each other.  It is not helpful to tell them to submit to the Magisterium because they are struggling with figuring out just what that Magisterium is teaching. They need help to understand how the apparent contradictions can be reconciled.
 

[Credo in Deum]

I prefer loyal dissident to "heretic," but it would not have made for much of a joke. I am not rowdy and I do not cause separation. I fully take the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Clement to the Corinthians to heart. I make no pretense that everybody else has to submit to my authority. In all things I am the obedient lamb.

Loyal dissident...hmm...would that be the same as wolf in sheep's clothing?

[HisChildForever]

Church documents, until very recently, were virtually never read by lay people.  The intended audience was people with extensive training in theology.  For someone to go in without this background and read things "at face value" is likely to lead to misunderstandings.  The value of a book like Fr. Sullivan's is that it explains how to understand to documents.  It is better to have a guide of this sort than to rely on one's ability to interpret the documents correctly.

 

Very cool, thanks for this! :)

[John Ryan]

Some people are in the situation of perceiving different Magisterial teachings as contradicting each other.  It is not helpful to tell them to submit to the Magisterium because they are struggling with figuring out just what that Magisterium is teaching. They need help to understand how the apparent contradictions can be reconciled.

 

I do not find post-Vatican II theology to be contradictory, so I cannot understand what all the fuss is about. Of course, my training is in the Hegelian dialectics, which thrives on living "contradictions".

 

Loyal dissident...hmm...would that be the same as wolf in sheep's clothing?

 

Only if you wish to greatly stretch the metaphor until it breaks.

[mortify ii]

the notions that draw me to becoming a catholic, are being a catholic who believes that noncatholics cannot be saved, and who believes that nonbaptaized infants go to hell, or limbo. these types of catholics do exist, and are obedient to the pope. of course they are probably not very popular for their beliefs.

 

those are the notions primarily that i saw as being contradictions, but reading into them further, could be argued as the old teachings correct, and the 'new' stuff just fallible statements and modern fancies.

 

what are your thoughts?

prefereably not delving into the subjects specifically, too much. just in general.

 

The simple answer is we can not positively assert what happens to a non-Catholic that die outside of the Church. Objectively speaking we know Catholicism is the only means of salvation on earth and yet we also know that God can act outside of the sacraments and save a particular soul for His particular reason, and for this reason "no salvation outside of the Church" does not equate with "all non-Catholics go to hell." It also does not equate with the more common error of believing that ignorance of Catholicism is somehow a ticket to heaven. We stick with what we know, Catholicism is necessary, no other religion has the means of saving or sanctifying souls. The schismatic Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, et al. possess no salvation in their groups and communities. If they die outside of the Catholic Church we entrust them to the mercy of God, and we will know what God judged on the Day of Judgement.

[Eliakim]

The Church preaches that those non-Christians who cooperate with the Grace God has given them can attain eternal salvation. It has become standard Roman theology since Vatican II. Amen.

 

John,

Will you cite to this teaching? 

E

[Fidei Defensor]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

 

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

Edited May 19, 2014 by tardis ad astra

[Eliakim]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

 

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

 

T.A.A.,

J Ryan stated non-Christians. This refers to Christians.