Modesty And Pope Pius Xii's Quotes

[KnightofChrist]

What especially tipped me off that it might be phony (or at least a misquote) is the part that says, "just as wrong as..." It just seems to me that someone like Pope Pius XII, in the time period in which he lived, with the office he held, would have expressed that phrase much more...verbosely, perhaps.
 
I'm fully willing to admit I may be wrong, and I'd be happy to admit that I'm wrong, if someone can do so from the ORIGINAL SOURCE!

 
 
After taking the quote marks off the quote I was able to find more than one site that had this quote, a lot more.
 
Here is the most common: 
 

“There always exists an absolute norm to be preserved” in modesty of dress. (Nov. 8, 1957.) Custom pays little attention to absolute norms, but is a product of another false principle, ”The majority cannot go wrong.” “Modesty is a matter of custom” is just as wrong as “Honesty is a matter of custom.” - Pius XII ?

 
What I think may have happened, if this was not made up, and if I've just not been able to find the real original, or if it's not it the 800 page Ada Apostolicae Sedis, is that someone paraphrased Pius XII. Because he did give an address to a Congress of the Latin Union of High Fashion on November 8th 1957. In this address he does speak of modesty not being a matter of custom, and that there were absolutes norms. Also I'm sure he did and would have taught honest is not a matter of custom. 

 

 

 
 

 Yet, no matter how broad and changeable the relative morals of styles may be, there is always an absolute norm to be kept after having heard the admonition of conscience warning against approaching danger: style must never be a proximate occasion of sin. 
 
- Pope Pius XII, Moral Problems in Fashion Design: An Address of Pope Pius XII to a Congress of The "Latin Union of High Fashion, alt source

 

When We spoke of the absolute limits to be defended in the relativism of style, We mentioned the unfounded character of another fallacious opinion according to which modesty is no longer appropriate in the contemporary era which has now become free of all useless and ruinous scruples.

 

            It can certainly be conceded that there are different degrees of public morality according to the times, the nature, and the conditions of the civilization of individual peoples.  But this does not invalidate the obligation to strive for the ideal of perfection and is not a sufficient reason to renounce the high degree of morality that has been achieved, and which manifests itself precisely in the great sensitivity with which consciences regard evil and its snares.

 

- Pope Pius XII, Moral Problems in Fashion Design: An Address of Pope Pius XII to a Congress of The "Latin Union of High Fashion, alt source

 

 

It is often said almost with passive resignation that fashions reflect the customs of a people.  But it would be more exact and much more useful to say that they express the decision and moral direction that a nation intends to take: either to be shipwrecked in licentiousness or maintain itself at the level to which it has been raised by religion and civilization.  

- Pope Pius XII, Moral Problems in Fashion Design: An Address of Pope Pius XII to a Congress of The "Latin Union of High Fashion , alt source

[KnightofChrist]

I don't know if it will affect your search, but you should know that "Ada Apostolicae Sedis" contains a typo.  The first word should be "Acta".  (typical scanning error)

 

I'm impressed with your research skills.  Very nice.

 

 

Thank you

[Cherie]

Thank you so very much.

 

That's what I think happened. Someone paraphrasing Pius XII's points and it got passed of as having been said directly by him as such.

 

I really, really appreciate the time and energy you took to look into this.

[KnightofChrist]

Thank you.

[ImageTrinity]

Write a blog post, Cherie. Interested to hear your collected thoughts on the subject! :)

[Cherie]

That's sweet of you, IT! I have a LOT of thoughts on the subject, but unfortunately my brain is like scrambled eggs. I fear a blog post would come out very scattered and simpleminded, and that's the last thing I'd want! My own personal understanding of this issue has gone through quite an evolution over the years.

[Nihil Obstat]

I am expecting my parish's annual modesty homily any week now. :hehe: Better from a priest than some random nosy old person or something.

[Cherie]

I am expecting my parish's annual modesty homily any week now. :hehe: Better from a priest than some random nosy old person or something.

Another reason why a blog post from me would probably fall flat ;)

[Perigrina]

Another reason why a blog post from me would probably fall flat ;)

 

I am interested in people talking about how they have arrived at their personal understanding of modesty.  The problem is people who talk as if their opinion is a dogma of the Church.

[Nihil Obstat]

Another reason why a blog post from me would probably fall flat ;)

Ah, I do not think you are the nosy old person archetype I have in mind. :proud:

[Cherie]

The problem is people who talk as if their opinion is a dogma of the Church.

TOTALLY agree! And this applies for lots of issues besides modesty, too!

[Cherie]

Ah, I do not think you are the nosy old person archetype I have in mind. :proud:

Haha, thank you...that somehow makes me feel younger!

[Perigrina]

TOTALLY agree! And this applies for lots of issues besides modesty, too!

 

Oh yes!  I don't have a problem with opinions.  I am very opinionated.  But I really try to distinguish between my opinions and Church teaching.

[reminiscere]

Here's the link the address on the Vatican's website, the only version available is in French: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/speeches/1954/documents/hf_p-xii_spe_19540717_pellegrinaggio-maria-immacolata_fr.html

[Fruminius]

I think a clarification regarding another, er, known quote could be helpful in this thread, too. The "2-3 finger" quote isn't from the Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII, but from the Cardinal Vicar of Pius XI. (That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't really seem appropriate to use this quote in the dreaded discussions on the morality of pants.)