John Ryan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Socialism has never displayed anything positive for the individual like that of free market. In fact, it always grows into absolute power to the government over the individual. When you consider unions and the issues they create we often forget what are they creating? A monopoly on the workforce, be it teachers unions, UAW, etc. Has the teachers union assisted in creating a better school system? Do they do everything possible to ensure they are the only benefactors of the taxpayers hard earned money? Do they believe in competition? When we move to the UAW, did they allow for their host to compete? Did they not end up getting taxpayer money? Did not the order of creditors (secured versus unsecured) not get turned on its head by the current administration? There is no benefit in this day and age to unions. None. Do we see unions at Google or Apple? We certainly should not see government unions (although we do) as who are they unionizing against? The taxpayer. And socialism is in direct conflict with democracy. "Democracy attaches all possible value to each man, while socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.†- de Tocqueville Your rendering of socialism is of such a vulgar sort. And since when has the free market shown positivity for the individual? The free market has historically turned human beings into a commodity, just another cog in the machine. Nothing but useless platitudes if you ask me. In practice, both liberalism and communism have spilt their fair share of innocent blood. All the wars of imperialism, the genocides, the children worked to death in the factories, these are all the legacies of liberal democracy and capitalism. It is quite comical actually. All the deaths of people at the hand of a regime that happens to be communist is considered to be death-by-communism. However, nobody every looks at all the deaths in Western Europe and the Colonies as death-by-capitalism or death-by-liberalism. Capitalism was perhaps just as vicious historically as communism. The Great Irish Famine was a capitalist genocide of perhaps 12.5 percent of the Irish population. The capitalist landlords exported most of their produce (a son gré) and left the population to starve. All the while, the British leaders kept insisting that the free market will make everything work out in the end. We hear about the Chinese communist great famine, but nobody ever talks about British capitalist great famine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Your rendering of socialism is of such a vulgar sort. And since when has the free market shown positivity for the individual? The free market has historically turned human beings into a commodity, just another cog in the machine. Nothing but useless platitudes if you ask me. In practice, both liberalism and communism have spilt their fair share of innocent blood. All the wars of imperialism, the genocides, the children worked to death in the factories, these are all the legacies of liberal democracy and capitalism. It is quite comical actually. All the deaths of people at the hand of a regime that happens to be communist is considered to be death-by-communism. However, nobody every looks at all the deaths in Western Europe and the Colonies as death-by-capitalism or death-by-liberalism. Capitalism was perhaps just as vicious historically as communism. The Great Irish Famine was a capitalist genocide of perhaps 12.5 percent of the Irish population. The capitalist landlords exported most of their produce (a son gré) and left the population to starve. All the while, the British leaders kept insisting that the free market will make everything work out in the end. We hear about the Chinese communist great famine, but nobody ever talks about British capitalist great famine. It's impossible for any historically literate person to deny that Communist regimes have been responsible for far more deaths over a period of less than a century than any other ideology. 94 million (not including wars) by one estimate (estimates vary from 75 million to over 100 million). No other ideological/political system comes close. (Fascism/Nazism comes in second at 28 million.) About 66 million were killed in WWII, the 20th century's bloodiest war, for comparison. (Graphic here.) More: http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/13/communism-killed-94m-in-20th-century https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism http://www.scottmanning.com/content/communist-body-count/ However you want to spin it, I think the numbers speak for themselves. If you want to deny Communism really had any blame for the deaths and oppression in Communist regimes, while blaming all deaths and attrocities in non-Communist countries directly on "Capitalism," you can do so, but that remains nothing but your ideological prejudice. Even so, the numbers are nowhere close. At the very least, it shows that the idea that Communism will lead to an earthly paradise to be an absurd fantasy. To be a Marxist Communist is to be in constant denial of reality and history. Edited June 22, 2014 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Your rendering of socialism is of such a vulgar sort. And since when has the free market shown positivity for the individual? The free market has historically turned human beings into a commodity, just another cog in the machine. Nothing but useless platitudes if you ask me. In practice, both liberalism and communism have spilt their fair share of innocent blood. All the wars of imperialism, the genocides, the children worked to death in the factories, these are all the legacies of liberal democracy and capitalism. It is quite comical actually. All the deaths of people at the hand of a regime that happens to be communist is considered to be death-by-communism. However, nobody every looks at all the deaths in Western Europe and the Colonies as death-by-capitalism or death-by-liberalism. Capitalism was perhaps just as vicious historically as communism. The Great Irish Famine was a capitalist genocide of perhaps 12.5 percent of the Irish population. The capitalist landlords exported most of their produce (a son gré) and left the population to starve. All the while, the British leaders kept insisting that the free market will make everything work out in the end. We hear about the Chinese communist great famine, but nobody ever talks about British capitalist great famine. The free market did not exist outside of the United States. Not in the UK (monarchy) nor anywhere in Europe. As for deaths, between Lenin, Castro, Guevara and Mao, you have over 200 million that were systematically killed by the state. There is simply no defense for socialism or communism as it is rife with government dictate over the individual. Of course, cronyism is a form of socialism (whether it is corporatist in nature or government in nature). That is our current system in the US since the days of Wilson. Top down control or grabbing of more and more. The US has not been a total free market since the days before Woodrow Wilson, but prior it unleashed the ability of all. It respected private property rights that was never seen in any other nation prior. The fruits of ones labor was their fruits to do as they pleased. No government told Henry Ford to pay his employees the ridiculous weekly wage he did, he did so on his own accord. It was the free market that saved us from the 1st great depression under J.P. Morgan, among other bankers. This fantasy of utopia by government plays out in college well, never in the real world. The free market has never lined people up before the graves they were forced to dig and then systematically shot. The free market has never declared jihad. The free market has never said kill your second born because you can only have one child. The free market does not lock you into poverty or a class system. The free market frees the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) It's impossible for any historically literate person to deny that Communist regimes have been responsible for far more deaths over a period of less than a century than any other ideology. 94 million (not including wars) by one estimate (estimates vary from 75 million to over 100 million). No other ideological/political system comes close. (Fascism/Nazism comes in second at 28 million.) About 66 million were killed in WWII, the 20th century's bloodiest war, for comparison. (Graphic here.) More: http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/13/communism-killed-94m-in-20th-century https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism http://www.scottmanning.com/content/communist-body-count/ However you want to spin it, I think the numbers speak for themselves. If you want to deny Communism really had any blame for the deaths and oppression in Communist regimes, while blaming all deaths and attrocities in non-Communist countries directly on "Capitalism," you can do so, but that remains nothing but your ideological prejudice. Even so, the numbers are nowhere close. At the very least, it shows that the idea that Communism will lead to an earthly paradise to be an absurd fantasy. To be a Marxist Communist is to be in constant denial of reality and history. The higher deaths from communism are mostly due to increasing world population. The percentages of persons killed are somewhat similar, considering all the deaths from capitalist-colonial genocide. The trick is that genocides are patriotic when they are capitalistic and only count as evil if they are done by a leftist. The difference is that Marxists are willing to admit that Communism has led to many atrocities in practice, whereas capitalists are too busy trying to figure out how to have relations with the American flag. The free market did not exist outside of the United States. Not in the UK (monarchy) nor anywhere in Europe. As for deaths, between Lenin, Castro, Guevara and Mao, you have over 200 million that were systematically killed by the state. There is simply no defense for socialism or communism as it is rife with government dictate over the individual. Of course, cronyism is a form of socialism (whether it is corporatist in nature or government in nature). That is our current system in the US since the days of Wilson. Top down control or grabbing of more and more. The US has not been a total free market since the days before Woodrow Wilson, but prior it unleashed the ability of all. It respected private property rights that was never seen in any other nation prior. The fruits of ones labor was their fruits to do as they pleased. No government told Henry Ford to pay his employees the ridiculous weekly wage he did, he did so on his own accord. It was the free market that saved us from the 1st great depression under J.P. Morgan, among other bankers. This fantasy of utopia by government plays out in college well, never in the real world. The free market has never lined people up before the graves they were forced to dig and then systematically shot. The free market has never declared jihad. The free market has never said kill your second born because you can only have one child. The free market does not lock you into poverty or a class system. The free market frees the individual. The only reason the "free-market" worked in the United States for a good number of years is because American was still mostly agrarian and when labor conditions became difficult for the workers, the Government land-grant program in the West was able to stave off conflicts between capital and labor. Communism is not about Government tyranny over the individual. It is about the freedom of the individual to democratically control the means of production with others in the community. You can say that is not communism-in-practice, but, and I hate to break it to you, the libertarian wet-dream of free-markets is not capitalism-in-practice either. Edited June 22, 2014 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblue Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Communism is not about Government tyranny over the individual. It is about the freedom of the individual to democratically control the means of production with others in the community. You can say that is not communism-in-practice, but, and I hate to break it to you, the libertarian wet-dream of free-markets is not capitalism-in-practice either. If America has it all wrong, in regards to the free market and capitalism who has it right ? and if who ever has it wrong about socialism / communism who in those categories has it correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) If America has it all wrong, in regards to the free market and capitalism who has it right ? and if who ever has it wrong about socialism / communism who in those categories has it correct ? I am not here to spread the Gospel of Marx. I am not much an evangelist. I merely hate this sycophantic tendency of some people in the Roman Church to think that a libertarian market policy based on egoism and individualism is the greatest expression of the communitarian values of the One True Church of Christ. Liberal market philosophy is the very antithesis of the whole history of Catholic social teaching. Market teaches that we have no social responsibility to our neighbor. At least Communism teaches the communitarian values of the Church non plus ultra. I realize that Communism has historically had many roots in atheism, but so does libertarian marketism with people like Ayn Rand, and Murray Rothbard. I do not think any country has got it right. I am not an idiot. I do not believe for one second that we can move in the near-future to Communism. Our society is not ready for that. Liberal modernity has too far alienated human beings from one another. Liberalism has separated us from our humanness. However, I think that Communist philosophy provides the best critique of modernist-capitalist society and offers the best path we should be leaning towards. The best example of societies today would have to be the Nordic Social Democratic states. However, the social democratic model has proven to be weak in the face of the capitalist logic it seeks to control. It is a shame the democratic communist revolutions did not win over in Russia (little known fact, the Bolsheviks actually slaughtered the democratic socialists to seize power for themselves, and then made all subsequent revolutions in their image) and the Western world. Socialist experiments like that in Catalonia were quickly destroyed by right-wing reactionaries. Conservatives (not the fake liberal Republicans who are all free-market worshipers) are often surprised when they actually take the time to read Marx's writings. Many conservatives are dismayed at how much they agree with what he has to say. Marx criticizes capitalism for not even allowing workers rest on the Lord's Day, and jokes that the capitalist shakes hands in Church with the same man he screws over in the market place. Edited June 22, 2014 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The higher deaths from communism are mostly due to increasing world population. The percentages of persons killed are somewhat similar, considering all the deaths from capitalist-colonial genocide. The trick is that genocides are patriotic when they are capitalistic and only count as evil if they are done by a leftist. The difference is that Marxists are willing to admit that Communism has led to many atrocities in practice, whereas capitalists are too busy trying to figure out how to have relations with the American flag. The only reason the "free-market" worked in the United States for a good number of years is because American was still mostly agrarian and when labor conditions became difficult for the workers, the Government land-grant program in the West was able to stave off conflicts between capital and labor. Communism is not about Government tyranny over the individual. It is about the freedom of the individual to democratically control the means of production with others in the community. You can say that is not communism-in-practice, but, and I hate to break it to you, the libertarian wet-dream of free-markets is not capitalism-in-practice either. Goodness, a devotee of Marx. There are so many places in the world where you can "enjoy" what you seek, Cuba, Venezuela, Red China, I mean who doesn't want to give up 80% of their income, live in a little government apartment, be told what to eat and be Danish? The key to what you said, "control the means of production with others in the community." Where was this control during the Industrial Revolution? Where was this control during the roaring 20's. Where is that control now with Google? Or Apple? Sorry, but Marxism has failed, but worse, it has led to the deaths of millions, loss of freedom and how it is not outrightly banned in this country (along with Satanism) is beyond me. I am not a libertarian, I am a constitutionalist. I would repeal some of the amendments (ie.the 17th). But just like the marxists in this country that took 100 years to destroy its base, it will probably take 200 years to reverse it. Keep in mind, the great American way never existed before and while it hardly exists today, never before were men so free, free of government, free of a class system, free to be as God had made them, independent and live to their capability. Socialism, aside from erasing this, chains the person to the government. I feel sorry for college kids these days, the marxist brain washing has gotten out of control. Pick up a copy of the Federalist Papers, the Anit-Federalists papers, Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America and then would suggest you give Milton Friedman a look (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL658A06660848E2D8). Never forget, this is about right versus wrong and socialism, regardless its flavor is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Conservatives who agree with the Communist Manifesto, in any form, are not conservatives, they are cronies. Democrats who agree with this thinking are cronies as well. This isn't about republican or democrat, but reinstating what this nation really is, a representative republic (seriously, when was the last time you heard that? We are not a democracy). America had it right. The marxists have managed to derail this nation. Took them 100 years and here we are. We resemble nothing that we were, none of us have ever known freedom. Whether it is Facebook, now trying to get the government what they want or another company seeking regulations to ensure that competition cannot happen (as is the case with Tesla). I suggest you read the founding. Read the notes. And I so hope you aren't one of this mindless folks running around wearing a Che shirt. I am not here to spread the Gospel of Marx. I am not much an evangelist. I merely hate this sycophantic tendency of some people in the Roman Church to think that a libertarian market policy based on egoism and individualism is the greatest expression of the communitarian values of the One True Church of Christ. Liberal market philosophy is the very antithesis of the whole history of Catholic social teaching. Market teaches that we have no social responsibility to our neighbor. At least Communism teaches the communitarian values of the Church non plus ultra. I realize that Communism has historically had many roots in atheism, but so does libertarian marketism with people like Ayn Rand, and Murray Rothbard. I do not think any country has got it right. I am not an idiot. I do not believe for one second that we can move in the near-future to Communism. Our society is not ready for that. Liberal modernity has too far alienated human beings from one another. Liberalism has separated us from our humanness. However, I think that Communist philosophy provides the best critique of modernist-capitalist society and offers the best path we should be leaning towards. The best example of societies today would have to be the Nordic Social Democratic states. However, the social democratic model has proven to be weak in the face of the capitalist logic it seeks to control. It is a shame the democratic communist revolutions did not win over in Russia (little known fact, the Bolsheviks actually slaughtered the democratic socialists to seize power for themselves, and then made all subsequent revolutions in their image) and the Western world. Socialist experiments like that in Catalonia were quickly destroyed by right-wing reactionaries. Conservatives (not the fake liberal Republicans who are all free-market worshipers) are often surprised when they actually take the time to read Marx's writings. Many conservatives are dismayed at how much they agree with what he has to say. Marx criticizes capitalism for not even allowing workers rest on the Lord's Day, and jokes that the capitalist shakes hands in Church with the same man he screws over in the market place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The higher deaths from communism are mostly due to increasing world population. No they aren't. ~50 years ago Mao killed 60 million of his own people. You could kill everyone in present-day New York and California and still not measure up to that level of bloodshed. There have been genocides committed in the past, but not by free market republics and definitely not on their own people - and that's what distinguishes Marxism so much... It's not just the death toll, which is staggering, it's the fact that this is done to their own population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I am not here to spread the Gospel of Marx. I am not much an evangelist. I merely hate this sycophantic tendency of some people in the Roman Church to think that a libertarian market policy based on egoism and individualism is the greatest expression of the communitarian values of the One True Church of Christ. I don't think you know what "sycophantic" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 All kneel before Mammon. Worship Mammon all the days of your lives. All hail the Mark of the Beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 All kneel before Mammon. Worship Mammon all the days of your lives. All hail the Mark of the Beast. I'd take a bourgeoisie businessman that lusts for money over a marxist that lusts for power any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I'd take a bourgeoisie businessman that lusts for money over a marxist that lusts for power any day. money is power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ryan Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) I'd take a bourgeoisie businessman that lusts for money over a marxist that lusts for power any day. And that is your choice to make. I will continue to reject both bourgeois and communist authoritarianism in favor of real democracy. I will continue preach for a world where a person does not need to enslave himself (herself) to another in order to live, whether that other is a bourgeois capitalist or state capitalist. Edited June 23, 2014 by John Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 money is power But power is not money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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