What Happens At The Moment A Pope Becomes An Anti Pope ?

[Nihil Obstat]

IMHO the majority of Catholics who would use such actions to justify that type of thinking are the ones that are looking for any excuse to shake off and oppose the Church for some deeper reason.  They point at JPII actions and say "that's why I am justified for disagreeing with the Church on such and such a matter."   Those who do not have that mind set jut looked at the popes actions, gave a face palm, and continued with their day knowing that people, Popes, and even Saints can make a mistake during their life. 

 

Do you think so? My perspective is a bit different.

 

What I see most often is your 'average' Catholic. They usually go to church every week, confession a couple times a year. They maybe volunteer a bit at church. They consider themselves to be pretty 'good Catholics'. They are practicing Catholics, but only to a certain point. It is primarily a cultural thing, with metaphysical overtones. And those people need to be ministered to. It is our job to bring them to a deeper, more effective practice of the faith.

These 'average Catholics' have a general idea of Church teaching, and they accept it to varying degrees. Not out of malice or pride, but more from bad catechesis. You know this type.

For a Catholic like this, they want practicing their faith to be easy, unoffensive, positive, and they do not want to be hated for it. We understand those wishes. That is why so many Catholics disregard Church teaching about abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc.. They are not easy teachings, and they need our support in accepting them.

But another tough thing for them is ecumenism. They do not want anyone to be offended by calling their religion false, or by refusing to participate in their ceremonies, or by denying them communion. Those things are hard, and people get offended. So for this average Catholic, they want to be able to go to a Protestant service or a Muslim service or a Buddhist ceremony, and they want to be able to participate, and they do not want the Church to tell them this is wrong. Again, it is not malice. It is a desire to be liked and respected.

So for such a Catholic, they see John Paul bow to and kiss a Koran, and they think "well that is just so nice. He is respecting Muslims and showing that we can all be friends. That is what I want out of my faith too; to be friends with people even if I disagree with them." So they start to think that they can and should follow suit, as part of practicing Catholicism.They are not interested in things like heresy and scandal, and they do not want to condemn anyone.

This Catholic, in my opinion, is the one perhaps most in need of authentic teachings from the Church, and unfortunately they are also the most likely to be affected by confusing moments like the one we are discussing.

 

I know this kind of Catholic, because it describes most of my family. We all know, they are not bad people, but they have not been shown the authentic, fully expressed Faith.

 

Virtually nobody would even be aware that Pope John Paul once kissed a Qur'an, if this incident were not constantly being brought to attention.  It was not a significant action and it could easily be forgotten, but some people will not let it rest.  These people are at least as guilty of causing scandal as the pope himself.

 

Certainly we need good catechesis on how Catholics should interact with non-Catholics and their worship, but I am not sure that any teaching needs to be made with reference to this specific incident.

Hm. that is a fairly bold statement, and I do not think I can agree. We are discussing whether or not the action was right. If it was not right, it is something that should be recognized and dealt with appropriately. If it was right, then we need a clear and satisfactory explanation for why it was. I do not think sweeping it under the rug does anybody good. Especially not for something like this, which touches on some pretty important issues of faith and morals.

[Perigrina]

For a Catholic like this, they want practicing their faith to be easy, unoffensive, positive, and they do not want to be hated for it. We understand those wishes. That is why so many Catholics disregard Church teaching about abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc.. They are not easy teachings, and they need our support in accepting them.

But another tough thing for them is ecumenism. They do not want anyone to be offended by calling their religion false, or by refusing to participate in their ceremonies, or by denying them communion. Those things are hard, and people get offended. So for this average Catholic, they want to be able to go to a Protestant service or a Muslim service or a Buddhist ceremony, and they want to be able to participate, and they do not want the Church to tell them this is wrong. Again, it is not malice. It is a desire to be liked and respected.

So for such a Catholic, they see John Paul bow to and kiss a Koran, and they think "well that is just so nice. He is respecting Muslims and showing that we can all be friends. That is what I want out of my faith too; to be friends with people even if I disagree with them." So they start to think that they can and should follow suit, as part of practicing Catholicism.They are not interested in things like heresy and scandal, and they do not want to condemn anyone.

This Catholic, in my opinion, is the one perhaps most in need of authentic teachings from the Church, and unfortunately they are also the most likely to be affected by confusing moments like the one we are discussing.

 

I have never encountered, neither on the Internet nor in person, false ecumenism justifed by "Pope John Paul II kissed the Qur'an".   I have, however, encountered discussions of the incident far more times than I can keep track of, always in a context of criticizing the Pope.  And most of the time, it has been to undermine his authority or to justify disobedience.

 

In my experience, "average" Catholics  would have no idea about a minor incident that took place in 2001.  It is not discussed in the secular media.  Most of the talk comes from trads or people who are responding to trads.  If "average" Catholics are being confused by this incident, it is probably because trads have called their attention to it.

[KnightofChrist]

I have never encountered, neither on the Internet nor in person, false ecumenism justifed by "Pope John Paul II kissed the Qur'an".   I have, however, encountered discussions of the incident far more times than I can keep track of, always in a context of criticizing the Pope.  And most of the time, it has been to undermine his authority or to justify disobedience.

 

In my experience, "average" Catholics  would have no idea about a minor incident that took place in 2001.  It is not discussed in the secular media.  Most of the talk comes from trads or people who are responding to trads.  If "average" Catholics are being confused by this incident, it is probably because trads have called their attention to it.

 

Shooting the messenger

[Eliakim]

An interesting point is brought up:

 

If a pope slips into formal heresy, even before making an ex-cathedra pronouncement, he is no longer in the Church and therefore no longer can be pope to make an ex-cathedra pronouncement.  Therefore any such pronouncement itself is invalid. 

 

The trouble I think with this, is how would one know if a pope slipped into formal heresy?  If he is a material heretic, he is still connected with the Church, correct? 

To be a formal heretic requires willingly with full knowledge and intent reject Truth.  What council would be equiped to determine that objectively? 

 

Therefore it appears to me that by faith one must assume the questionable pope is still validly the pope when he makes an ex-cathedra pronouncement.  However this does not preclude taking measures to stand up to a questionable Pope on matters outside the realm of faith and morals. 

 

E

Edited May 14, 2014 by Eliakim

[Perigrina]

Shooting the messenger

 

And just why is this a message that needs to be given?  If there is no good reason to damage the reputation of another, then we are talking about the sin of detraction.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04757a.htm

[Nihil Obstat]

I have never encountered, neither on the Internet nor in person, false ecumenism justifed by "Pope John Paul II kissed the Qur'an".   I have, however, encountered discussions of the incident far more times than I can keep track of, always in a context of criticizing the Pope.  And most of the time, it has been to undermine his authority or to justify disobedience.

 

In my experience, "average" Catholics  would have no idea about a minor incident that took place in 2001.  It is not discussed in the secular media.  Most of the talk comes from trads or people who are responding to trads.  If "average" Catholics are being confused by this incident, it is probably because trads have called their attention to it.

Interesting. I have encountered many such people. But there is no disagreement with anecdotes, really. In my opinion such Catholics absolutely exist, and when they know of such incidents occurring are absolutely led to some amount of confusion. More or less depending on the person and their own inclinations. 

 

Besides that, as I thought was understood by all of us but perhaps is not, the whole kissing of the Koran is not one incident in isolation from his entire pontificate. There are other things that could be discussed. The Assisi meetings are another example, and we could further subdivide. The kissing of the Koran can, for us, be a convenient moment that represents a range of events that have occurred in recent decades. Not only acts of John Paul II, but of other priests and bishops across the world.

Like I said, it is not a single incident in isolation, but it also points towards other things that have also happened, and which are too numerous and often too local to discuss in quite the same amount of depth.

 

 

You sound rather annoyed, just in my general opinion. There is no reason to get heated, because we are all on the same team, so to speak.

[KnightofChrist]

And just why is this a message that needs to be given?  If there is no good reason to damage the reputation of another, then we are talking about the sin of detraction.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04757a.htm

 

Because it is a matter of public record, a historical fact of reality. Because this action caused and continues to cause great confusion and scandal with or without Trads as your scapegoats.  It happened in public and for the whole world to see. You are not going to make it go away by blaming the Trads for putting it out there and accusing them of the sin of detraction for objectively and validly calling it an error and or mistake. 

[Perigrina]

Interesting. I have encountered many such people. But there is no disagreement with anecdotes, really. In my opinion such Catholics absolutely exist, and when they know of such incidents occurring are absolutely led to some amount of confusion. More or less depending on the person and their own inclinations. 

 

Besides that, as I thought was understood by all of us but perhaps is not, the whole kissing of the Koran is not one incident in isolation from his entire pontificate. There are other things that could be discussed. The Assisi meetings are another example, and we could further subdivide. The kissing of the Koran can, for us, be a convenient moment that represents a range of events that have occurred in recent decades. Not only acts of John Paul II, but of other priests and bishops across the world.

Like I said, it is not a single incident in isolation, but it also points towards other things that have also happened, and which are too numerous and often too local to discuss in quite the same amount of depth.

 

 

You sound rather annoyed, just in my general opinion. There is no reason to get heated, because we are all on the same team, so to speak.

 

I have a choleric temperment which means that I often sound more annoyed than I actually am. Thanks for calling me on it.  I would like to speak and write more gently, but it does not come easily to me.  Please be patient with me and pray for me to grow in this area. 

 

I agree that Korangate is not an isolated incident, but I think that the usual trad criticisms of St. Pope John Paul II tend to boil down to portraying errors of judgment as acts of heresy or apostacy.  There are far more serious problems in the wider Church than a pope using easily misunderstood gestures.

[Perigrina]

Because it is a matter of public record, a historical fact of reality. Because this action caused and continues to cause great confusion and scandal with or without Trads as your scapegoats.  It happened in public and for the whole world to see. You are not going to make it go away by blaming the Trads for putting it out there and accusing them of the sin of detraction for objectively and validly calling it an error and or mistake. 

 

I consider myself a trad.  That is precisely why I tend to be somewhat harsher on trads.  As long as we keep talking about kissing the Qur'an it will continue to cause confusion and scandal.  If we let it go, it would be forgotten and would cause no harm.

 

The sin of detraction is  "the unjust damaging of another's good name by the revelation of some fault or crime of which that other is really guilty or at any rate is seriously believed to be guilty by the defamer."  One is not free of this sin just because one makes an accusation that is true.  What determines detraction is whether one is revealing another's fault without any benefit for the common good. 

[Guest]

I think the kissing the Quran thing probably effects Protestants in a more negative way then Catholics...It might make them hesitant about converting to Catholicism or cause them confusion...With that said the Pope was a great man and a Saint...I humbly ask for his prayers from Heaven and won't throw stones at him...

Edited May 14, 2014 by Guest

[4588686]

I am the true Pope.

[Guest]

You're an antipope...

[mortify ii]

Bowing and kissing are signs of reverence even in our Catholic culture. Objectively what the Holy Father did was wrong even if one wishes to argue that subjectively his intention was to respect Muslims... Whatever that is even supposed to mean. Should I also bless the name of Islam's prophet out of respect to the muhammedans?

Regarding formal vs material heresy it's a non issue. If a pope teaches material heresy we still have to reject it without rejecting him as pope.

[4588686]

Bowing and kissing are signs of reverence even in our Catholic culture. Objectively what the Holy Father did was wrong even if one wishes to argue that subjectively his intention was to respect Muslims... Whatever that is even supposed to mean. Should I also bless the name of Islam's prophet out of respect to the muhammedans?

Regarding formal vs material heresy it's a non issue. If a pope teaches material heresy we still have to reject it without rejecting him as pope.

 

 

 

I excommunicate you.  

[4588686]

You're an antipope...

 

 

You fly off the handle sometimes but I like you.  I will make you a Cardinal.