Guest Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 We can overthrow the Church together....(evil laugh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) I think the kissing the Quran thing probably effects Protestants in a more negative way then Catholics...It might make them hesitant about converting to Catholicism or cause them confusion...With that said the Pope was a great man and a Saint...I humbly ask for his prayers from Heaven and won't throw stones at him like Motify... I consider myself a trad. That is precisely why I tend to be somewhat harsher on trads. As long as we keep talking about kissing the Qur'an it will continue to cause confusion and scandal. If we let it go, it would be forgotten and would cause no harm. The sin of detraction is "the unjust damaging of another's good name by the revelation of some fault or crime of which that other is really guilty or at any rate is seriously believed to be guilty by the defamer." One is not free of this sin just because one makes an accusation that is true. What determines detraction is whether one is revealing another's fault without any benefit for the common good. Josh brings up a good point and it is something I've seen, and this is why Trads can't be the only ones we see who think this action is important and confusing. It is something I've had various protestants ask me about. They see it as idolatry, and trying to explain to them that he was just giving respect but not reverence is not really possible. Edited May 14, 2014 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliakim Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Regarding formal vs material heresy it's a non issue. If a pope teaches material heresy we still have to reject it without rejecting him as pope. What I said in #124. We seem to agree after flushing it out a bit more. Cheers/ E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliakim Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 My point is that you would never know if a pope is valid or not because you cannot know if he is a formal or material heretic. Check out #124 again. All Catholics can do is stand up to a questionable pope on things he has not pronounced ex-cathedra. But we must always assume he is the valid pope. When the Great Apostasy comes, things will become confusing but by faith we believe that the Holy Spirit will strike dead anyone that attempts to defile the Chair to make an infallible declaration. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 My point is that you would never know if a pope is valid or not because you cannot know if he is a formal or material heretic. Check out #124 again. All Catholics can do is stand up to a questionable pope on things he has not pronounced ex-cathedra. But we must always assume he is the valid pope. When the Great Apostasy comes, things will become confusing but by faith we believe that the Holy Spirit will strike dead anyone that attempts to defile the Chair to make an infallible declaration. E I don't know you but I like the cut of your jibb. You are also now a Cardinal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I have a choleric temperment which means that I often sound more annoyed than I actually am. Thanks for calling me on it. I would like to speak and write more gently, but it does not come easily to me. Please be patient with me and pray for me to grow in this area. I agree that Korangate is not an isolated incident, but I think that the usual trad criticisms of St. Pope John Paul II tend to boil down to portraying errors of judgment as acts of heresy or apostacy. There are far more serious problems in the wider Church than a pope using easily misunderstood gestures. I understand that. I really do. I passed through that line of thinking and arrived in a slightly different place. It might be asked, if there are so many easily misunderstood gestures and actions and words, how many misunderstandings can there be before we should stop for a moment, and maybe consider that there are criticisms to be made. Perhaps we are not at that point right now, but perhaps we are. There is only so much confusion that we as a Church should have to tolerate. It is for the good of the Church, not to fuel traditionalist pride. All we want to do is make sure the Church is defended and that Her efficacy is never hindered, and obviously we fail in that sometimes, as do all faithful Catholics. But fundamentally our position of caution and focus on Tradition is out of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Bowing and kissing are signs of reverence even in our Catholic culture. Objectively what the Holy Father did was wrong even if one wishes to argue that subjectively his intention was to respect Muslims... Whatever that is even supposed to mean. Should I also bless the name of Islam's prophet out of respect to the muhammedans? Regarding formal vs material heresy it's a non issue. If a pope teaches material heresy we still have to reject it without rejecting him as pope. I do not see how it is possible for gestures to be objectively wrong. It is the nature of gestures to be culturally contingent. The meanings of gestures can vary even within the same country. Pope John Paul II often used bowing and kissing to convey a variety of meanings. If he said that he intended to show respect in a certain instance, then we ought to believe him. As I said, at worst, it was an error in judgment. Nobody has yet explained to me how it is possible for a pope to be a formal heretic, but, yes, we should reject material heresy. On the other hand, I have many times seen people incorrectly identify things a material heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Nobody has yet explained to me how it is possible for a pope to be a formal heretic, but, yes, we should reject material heresy. On the other hand, I have many times seen people incorrectly identify things a material heresy. That is only because you do not think that the episcopate has the competency to call the pope to recant material heresy. :P I see no reason that they do not have the right, and in fact the obligation to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I understand that. I really do. I passed through that line of thinking and arrived in a slightly different place. It might be asked, if there are so many easily misunderstood gestures and actions and words, how many misunderstandings can there be before we should stop for a moment, and maybe consider that there are criticisms to be made. Perhaps we are not at that point right now, but perhaps we are. There is only so much confusion that we as a Church should have to tolerate. It is for the good of the Church, not to fuel traditionalist pride. All we want to do is make sure the Church is defended and that Her efficacy is never hindered, and obviously we fail in that sometimes, as do all faithful Catholics. But fundamentally our position of caution and focus on Tradition is out of love. I personally do not have a problem with respectful criticisms of popes, although I understand the forum rules to prohibit any criticism here. I too am troubled by the confusion and ignorance I see throughout the Church. I think that mistakes by popes have played a very small role in creating the problems we face today, but I agree that there is cause for concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 That is only because you do not think that the episcopate has the competency to call the pope to recant material heresy. :P I see no reason that they do not have the right, and in fact the obligation to do so. I agree that they have a right to call the pope to recant what they believe to be material heresy, just not that he is obliged to accept their judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I do not see how it is possible for gestures to be objectively wrong. It is the nature of gestures to be culturally contingent. The meanings of gestures can vary even within the same country. Pope John Paul II often used bowing and kissing to convey a variety of meanings. If he said that he intended to show respect in a certain instance, then we ought to believe him. As I said, at worst, it was an error in judgment Bowing towards and kissing objects are signs of reverance in Catholicism and Islam. The Patriarch with the Pope admitted it was not an empty gesture but out of respect for Muslims. So the Pope respected the Quran as those who believe in it. Does that mean we can actively participate in non-Catholic ceremonies? The past teaching was that doing do was forbidden, and any Catholic found doing it was suspect of heresy. The action in itself was scandalous, see 1 Cor 8:9 etc about that. It's simply inexcusable to try to justify this act. I'm not saying the Holy Father was not the Pope, I'm saying he was wrong, and the damage from that and similar actions are still reverberating. Nobody has yet explained to me how it is possible for a pope to be a formal heretic, but, yes, we should reject material heresy. On the other hand, I have many times seen people incorrectly identify things a material heresy. If a Pope Said, "the council of Trent taught the transubstantiation but I teach the Eucharist is nothing but a symbol" that is formal and not material heresy. It is possible to know formal from innocent error or material error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify ii Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 As an aside, the Naksibendi Sufis I associated with... Basically Islamic mysticism... Literally believed JPII was an undercover Muslim! The cited the Quran issue as *one* reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I agree that they have a right to call the pope to recant what they believe to be material heresy, just not that he is obliged to accept their judgment. I do not see how this could follow. If the criticisms are valid, i.e. the hypothetical pope's statements are either dangerously ambiguous or materially heretical, then the pope is morally obligated to correct himself. It should not matter that the person who brings it to his attention is beneath his authority; that pope is obligated before God and out of respect for his office to correct himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perigrina Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I do not see how this could follow. If the criticisms are valid, i.e. the hypothetical pope's statements are either dangerously ambiguous or materially heretical, then the pope is morally obligated to correct himself. It should not matter that the person who brings it to his attention is beneath his authority; that pope is obligated before God and out of respect for his office to correct himself. The pope would be morally obligated to correct himself if they succeeded in convincing him that he had made a statement that was dangerously ambiguous or materilally heretical. If he remained convinced that his statement was in conformity with Tradition, he would not be so obliged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 The pope would be morally obligated to correct himself if they succeeded in convincing him that he had made a statement that was dangerously ambiguous or materilally heretical. If he remained convinced that his statement was in conformity with Tradition, he would not be so obliged. What if he was clearly wrong, when measured against Tradition? Or if significant doubt remained despite his own opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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