Graces From Protestant Services?

[mortify ii]

Peace,

 

The Inquisition was a gigantic justification of murder. And Aristotle's justification of slavery based on "natural law" is a joke. When you read the section on slavery in his Politics, you do not even get the feeling that Aristotle was convinced by his own argument.

 

Whenever someone speaks of "The Inquisition" I already know they were misinformed. There is no such thing as "the inquisition," rather there were particular inquisitions, so which inquisition do you feel was a "gigantic justification of murder"? 

 

So in your book Mortify black people being slaves was ok and not sinful ?

 

No, I never said that. Chattel slavery based on racism was very sinful and unjust. What I am saying is that according to Aristotle some are born slaves.  Sort of like some are born to lead and others to follow. 

[John Ryan]

Whenever someone speaks of "The Inquisition" I already know they were misinformed. There is no such thing as "the inquisition," rather there were particular inquisitions, so which inquisition do you feel was a "gigantic justification of murder"?

 

I have the Spanish Inquisition in mind. I am not certain of the exact numbers, but I have heard that the numbers should be about 5,000 executions. I am not so much offended by the number as the idea of executing people for heresy and apostasy. 

[Guest]

Yes, that is true, but we also were made aware of a great apostasy and a falling away of the hierarchy.

fill me in on this...

[AugustineA]

The Inquisition was a gigantic justification of murder. And Aristotle's justification of slavery based on "natural law" is a joke. When you read the section on slavery in his Politics, you do not even get the feeling that Aristotle was convinced by his own argument.

 

What... lol

 

I just read it. In fact I keep a copy of Nicomachean Ethics in my back pocket. Of course he was convinced of his own argument; it was plainly couched in the scaffolding of his entire work. More importantly it has nothing to do with the Church's understanding of slavery, or the historical biblical understanding of slavery, which has nothing to do with modern pre-war slavery (Josh)..

 

And if you look at the title of this thread has really come so far from the topic at hand that it was very little relevance. 

 

I always get the sense that theology, history, and philosophy when dragged into E-squabbles are just used as opinion-ornamentation.

[mortify ii]

I have the Spanish Inquisition in mind. I am not certain of the exact numbers, but I have heard that the numbers should be about 5,000 executions. I am not so much offended by the number as the idea of executing people for heresy and apostasy. 

 

John, this is probably going to sound way out there but we are all the products of social engineering. Our minds were developed to think a certain way and value certain things. So I am not at all surprised you feel offended, but whether those feelings are really your own is another question. So core issue here is of course becoming enlightened so to speak, and then we can realize how something like heresy is actually worse than murder. 

[Ice_nine]

fill me in on this...

 

I'd also like to get schooled on what mort is talking about.

 

In addition mortify, I'd like to know what the hell you suggest we do. As I'm sure you know, ranting on the internet is a great place to blow off steam but it gets nothing done. Offer some practical suggestions. Should I stop going to Mass? Since, who knows if it's even a real Mass anymore. There may not be any real Masses within a 300 mile radius. The One True Church is hiding on us I guess?

 

Although I'm sure you wouldn't say it's invisible because as we all know that's a dirty protestant heresy, so I'm genuinely confused as to how we are supposed to respond concerning the practice (not internet bitching) of our faith. Christ said to trust that the gates of hell will not prevail, but if there is no authentic pope and all really is as terrible as you claim, then it seems like Hell is doing a pretty damn good job.

 

 

Because I think it's good to listen to people who irritate me, please, enlighten me.

[mortify ii]

Peace be with you,

 

Because I think it's good to listen to people who irritate me, please, enlighten me.

 

I know you were being sarcastic but just to emphasize I am in no position to enlighten. I seek and learn every day, and without an advanced soul to guide me the progress is extremely slow, in fact more set backs than anything. But let me first say that I am not a sedevacantist, and quite honestly I don't know what my position is in this regard. I can say that *material* heresy and blasphemy have been taught in writing, in speeches, and in actions, but as we know there is a great gulf of difference between material and formal heresy, so again I can't say we don't have a Pope, and quite frankly it would be imprudent of me to suggest we don't. I am first of all in no position to make such a judgement, it is really beyond my abilities and competancies, and most importantly I would be too afraid to do so. That is a very serious charge, you would need scientific grade evidence to even support such a thing, and I don't think anyone has that. Lastly, it would be imprudent, since when I go before the judgement seat of God I will not be asked who or if the Pope was authentic or not. It suffices that I believe in what need to be believed in and would submit the authentic magisterium of the Church. 

 

That said however, we are in a crisis, and we can do nothing about it until God raises a Pope who will get us out of this. Getting us out of this would mean restoring the whole and unabridged liturgy as it was prior to the changes of Pope Pius XII, condemning the errors and blasphemies that reign in our day, and further defining the limitations of Papal authority. One of the core heresies of our day is the idea that the Pope can do anything. Vatican I, Session 4, Chapter 4, number 6 already laid the foundation for this limitation. 

 

What I do personally is pray and meditate. I fail often but I try to keep myself pure, talk to Jesus, and work to improve my relationship with God and advance towards union with Him. I am studying the 1945 Missal and have spoke to my priest who is a Latinist in hopes of serving at the mass. Doing corporal works of mercy by serving a local shelter or soup kitchen is also one of my aims. I am not fit to do a lot of things but I am trying to do my best to preserve what we have, so that one day it will be restored and this dreaded epoch will end. 

 

So I know this was not very helpful, but these are confusing times, some have chosen the path of sedevacantism, others sspx, others fssp, and others something else. Whatever your conscience tells you to do you must do it. Find the remnant and support them, and work to save your soul. Pray for me and I will pray for you. 

[Guest]

Yes, that is true, but we also were made aware of a great apostasy and a falling away of the hierarchy.

This is the third time asking you to explain this? Edited May 6, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

Peace be with you,


I know you were being sarcastic but just to emphasize I am in no position to enlighten. I seek and learn every day, and without an advanced soul to guide me the progress is extremely slow, in fact more set backs than anything. But let me first say that I am not a sedevacantist, and quite honestly I don't know what my position is in this regard. I can say that *material* heresy and blasphemy have been taught in writing, in speeches, and in actions, but as we know there is a great gulf of difference between material and formal heresy, so again I can't say we don't have a Pope, and quite frankly it would be imprudent of me to suggest we don't. I am first of all in no position to make such a judgement, it is really beyond my abilities and competancies, and most importantly I would be too afraid to do so. That is a very serious charge, you would need scientific grade evidence to even support such a thing, and I don't think anyone has that. Lastly, it would be imprudent, since when I go before the judgement seat of God I will not be asked who or if the Pope was authentic or not. It suffices that I believe in what need to be believed in and would submit the authentic magisterium of the Church.

That said however, we are in a crisis, and we can do nothing about it until God raises a Pope who will get us out of this. Getting us out of this would mean restoring the whole and unabridged liturgy as it was prior to the changes of Pope Pius XII, condemning the errors and blasphemies that reign in our day, and further defining the limitations of Papal authority. One of the core heresies of our day is the idea that the Pope can do anything. Vatican I, Session 4, Chapter 4, number 6 already laid the foundation for this limitation.

What I do personally is pray and meditate. I fail often but I try to keep myself pure, talk to Jesus, and work to improve my relationship with God and advance towards union with Him. I am studying the 1945 Missal and have spoke to my priest who is a Latinist in hopes of serving at the mass. Doing corporal works of mercy by serving a local shelter or soup kitchen is also one of my aims. I am not fit to do a lot of things but I am trying to do my best to preserve what we have, so that one day it will be restored and this dreaded epoch will end.

So I know this was not very helpful, but these are confusing times, some have chosen the path of sedevacantism, others sspx, others fssp, and others something else. Whatever your conscience tells you to do you must do it. Find the remnant and support them, and work to save your soul. Pray for me and I will pray for you.

Sounds Phishy Edited May 6, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

You're telling me to join the sspx if my conscience tells me to do so.......That's phishy......

[mortify ii]

You're telling me to join the sspx if my conscience tells me to do so.......That's phishy......

 

I'm telling you to use you're conscience on this matter because the exact nature of the crisis is beyond me. Some traditionalists have gone the SSPX route, others the FSSP, and still others Sedevacantism. In my opinion traditionalists should no be divided over these differences, a unified and concerted effort should be made towards restoration. I personally don't fit in any of those groups since I am assisting my priest with establishing a Latin mass at our novos ordo parish. 

[Credo in Deum]

Please do not lump the FSSP in between two options which Catholics clearly cannot choose.  Doing so sends the wrong message about them. 

[mortify ii]

Please do not lump the FSSP in between two options which Catholics clearly cannot choose.  Doing so sends the wrong message about them. 

 

How is it clear they can not choose other positions? We are living in confusing and unprecedented times. I am not going to judge a brother or sister over their opinion on the nature of this crisis. 

[Credo in Deum]

How is it clear they can not choose other positions? We are living in confusing and unprecedented times. I am not going to judge a brother or sister over their opinion on the nature of this crisis. 

 

Both the SSPX and the Sedevacantists are schismatic.  This means Catholic's are not free to join them.  The FSSP on the other hand are not schismatic, therefore, Catholics are free to join one of their parishes.   All Catholic's are duty bound to obey the Church in these matters.  If you do not believe this then talk with your parish priest.  This is not passing judgment on anyone, so don't play that card when it's not even in the deck. 

[mortify ii]

Both the SSPX and the Sedevacantists are schismatic.  This means Catholic's are not free to join them.  The FSSP on the other hand are not schismatic, therefore, Catholics are free to join one of their parishes.   All Catholic's are duty bound to obey the Church in these matters.  If you do not believe this then talk with your parish priest.  This is not passing judgment on anyone, so don't play that card when it's not even in the deck. 

 

The SSPX and Sedevacantists believe the recent Popes are the cause of the crisis we are currently in and so they are bound by conscience to resist the Popes they believe are destroying the Church, as some of our greatest and holiest theologians have taught, e.g. Cajetan. So again, this is a complicated matter, we were never in a situation like this before, and I will not criticize, attack, or demean an orthodox Catholic for what they believe to be the nature of the crisis we are in, even if I may personally disagree with them.