Graces From Protestant Services?

[Credo in Deum]

I do not have citations at the moment. I am not exactly a theologian, so this is not my expertise. The writings of the Fathers is so vast, I forget where they are. 

 

Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI, back when he was still Joseph Ratzinger, wisely wrote:

 

"It seems as if we want to be rewarded, not just with our own salvation, but most especially with other people's damnation—just like the workers hired in the first hour. That is very human, but the Lord's parable is particularly meant to make us quite aware of how profoundly un-Christian it is at the same time. Anyone who looks on the loss of salvation for others as the condition, as it were, on which he serves Christ will in the end only be able to turn away grumbling, because that kind of reward is contrary to the loving-kindness of God."

Thank you, John.  I ask for citations because their writings are so vast I wouldn't even know where to begin.  I figured if you named them, you would know where I could start looking.  As for the quote from Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI, I do not see how it relates to a "reasonable hope that all men are saved" type of theology.   There is a difference between hoping now one goes to Hell, and holding the hope that no one is in Hell.  

Edited May 4, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[mortify ii]

I will take that as a compliment from somebody who is SSPX-inclined. It cannot sting exactly when some of the greatest Catholic theologians have come to similar conclusions. 

 

I am not associated with the SSPX, I'm simply awake to the fact that we are in a crisis, and in fact the worst crisis the Church has every gone through.

 

As for the "greatest Catholic theologians" I don't know who you refer to. It is a dogmatic teaching of the Church that certain persons are destined to eternal separation (mystery of reprobation.) To say hell exists but is empty renders it superfluous and God did not create anything unnecessary. In this respect Von Balthasar is in error, to put it mildly. As an aside, Von Balthasar may also have been an occultist as he wrote the preface to the Meditations on the Tarot, a rather interesting book non the less. 

[mortify ii]

Yes I agree with you there. I guess thats all I was trying to say in the first place haha! Articulation is not my strong point.

 

The one group of poeple I always think about are some of the very very few still existing indigenous tribes that have 0 contact with the outside world. If they died without knowing God or the church, is it really their fault? Should they be condemned to Hell? I dont think so, and I dont think God would hold it against them if they didnt know him.

 

But it seems we are in agreement anyway :)

 

We can't be blamed for what we don't know, but people tend to think ignorance is a "get into heaven" card. Deprived of grace and illumination it is unlikely they made it, but God knows best. 

[CrossCuT]

We can't be blamed for what we don't know, but people tend to think ignorance is a "get into heaven" card. Deprived of grace and illumination it is unlikely they made it, but God knows best. 

 

I truly believe that our loving God does not allow these individuals suffer eternally.

[Fidei Defensor]

Why do you have such a hard time believing that splinters of truth can exist outside of the Church? It doesn't take away from the fact that the Church holds the complete fullness, it simply means that by the natural law written on the hearts of man, they have stumbled across a sliver or two of the truth.

[mortify ii]

I truly believe that our loving God does not allow these individuals suffer eternally.

 

You believe contrary to the teachings of our Lord who taught us the eternal aspect of the hereafter. We are in control of our destiny, we choose where we ill end up, and in fact we are living our end right now. The hereafter is merely our current state brought to perfection, if we die in union we enjoy it in the hereafter, if we are separated our separation continues into the next world. The love of God is manifested in the graces he offers us, we must act, and I must act, but in the end he respects our free choice.

[mortify ii]

Why do you have such a hard time believing that splinters of truth can exist outside of the Church? It doesn't take away from the fact that the Church holds the complete fullness, it simply means that by the natural law written on the hearts of man, they have stumbled across a sliver or two of the truth.

 

I have no issue with accepting that others are right about certain things, but being right about certain things is not salvific, and that is where we have a disagreement. A drop of poison in a glass of water is all it takes, and altering the faith by one doctrine is all it takes to separate oneself from the ark that is the Church, and outside of the Church there is no salvation. 

[CrossCuT]

You believe contrary to the teachings of our Lord who taught us the eternal aspect of the hereafter. We are in control of our destiny, we choose where we ill end up, and in fact we are living our end right now. The hereafter is merely our current state brought to perfection, if we die in union we enjoy it in the hereafter, if we are separated our separation continues into the next world. The love of God is manifested in the graces he offers us, we must act, and I must act, but in the end he respects our free choice.

 

Hey man, I TOTALLY get that. But Im not talking about people who learn about God and turn away. Im talking about the people who NEVER have a conscious understand of him or the church; people who NEVER learn about him through no fault of their own. If they die unaware, do you think they should suffer the loss of heaven?

[mortify ii]

Hey man, I TOTALLY get that. But Im not talking about people who learn about God and turn away. Im talking about the people who NEVER have a conscious understand of him or the church; people who NEVER learn about him through no fault of their own. If they die unaware, do you think they should suffer the loss of heaven?

 

As I said, those who are unaware of the need to be in the Church can not be guilty of being outside of her, but as I also said, just because one is ignorant does not mean they automatically go to heaven. In fact, it is much hard for such a person outside of grace and enlightenment to make it, but God can non the less work outside of the sacraments and enlighten those who are worthy. There are accounts of Spanish missionaries discovering native tribes already worshiping our Lord and knowing the basic tenants of the faith because they were taught by a saintly nun who bilocated before them. Make no mistake, God will provide the path to those who seek Him. 

[Fidei Defensor]

Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863:

 

And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.

 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

Pope Pius XII, MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ" and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.

 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

All we're trying to point out is that salvation is not necessarily deprived to someone with an ignorance of the faith through no fault of their own, which can include other denominations which may never realize the error of their ways.

Edited May 4, 2014 by tardis ad astra

[mortify ii]

All we're trying to point out is that salvation is not necessarily deprived of someone with an ignorance of the faith through no fault of their own, which can include other denominations which may never realize the error of their ways.

 

Let me say explicitly that I am not a Feeneyite. As I said several times already a person who is ignorant of the Church can not be guilty of the sin of separation, but once again, just because one is not guilty of separation does not mean they can't be guilty for something else. It is absolutely necessary to be a part of the Church and receive the graces and enlightenment that God offers. Those who seek God and strive for him will undoubtedly be rewarded. 

[mortify ii]

All we're trying to point out is that salvation is not necessarily deprived to someone with an ignorance of the faith through no fault of their own, which can include other denominations which may never realize the error of their ways.

 

You changed your statement a bit to include other denominations. Let me just add that we are all responsible for our salvation. Once a person reaches the age of reason they take ownership of what they believe, and that includes any heresy they may have been taught. As St Augustine said, one may have everything outside of the Church, and that includes the Bible, liturgy, sacraments, and prayer, but the one thing you can't have is salvation. 

[Fidei Defensor]

You changed your statement a bit to include other denominations. Let me just add that we are all responsible for our salvation. Once a person reaches the age of reason they take ownership of what they believe, and that includes any heresy they may have been taught. As St Augustine said, one may have everything outside of the Church, and that includes the Bible, liturgy, sacraments, and prayer, but the one thing you can't have is salvation. 

And I'm saying that we can't judge a person's heart and know that they are fully culpable for their ignorance.  God can. And does.

 

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, but remember that God is merciful and understanding.