Graces From Protestant Services?

[Perigrina]

I have been looking over this forum (phorum?) trying to figure out if I would fit in at Phatmass and this thread has me wondering what the attitude here is toward traditionally inclined Catholics.  Some of the comments seemed somewhat hostile.  I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass when possible.  Is that going to be a problem? 

 

I hope this is not too off-topic.  Should I be asking about this somewhere else?

[Nihil Obstat]

I have been looking over this forum (phorum?) trying to figure out if I would fit in at Phatmass and this thread has me wondering what the attitude here is toward traditionally inclined Catholics.  Some of the comments seemed somewhat hostile.  I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass when possible.  Is that going to be a problem? 

 

I hope this is not too off-topic.  Should I be asking about this somewhere else?

You can hang out with me. :hehe:

[mortify ii]

Protestant services ain't got no graces!

[Perigrina]

Protestant services ain't got no graces!

 

If Holy Scripture were to be read at a Protestand service (as it often is) it would remain Holy Scripture and thus be a channel of grace.

[CrossCuT]

From what I understand you get receive grace simply from stubbing your toe by offering it up and not complaining. 

[Anastasia13]

Both, but fewer kitchen knives, and more in the way of folding pocket knives. Just the other day I sold this beauty.

It was borderline poetic how beautiful this knife was, and how it felt in the hand. Like a frakking cliche love story. Guy came in with exactly the same reaction as me. He did not even want to buy anything, just came to look at the new stock. Saw this knife, held it, was a bit put off by the $300 price tag. So he set it down. And picked it up again, and again, and again. At the end of the day he realized that he was going to regret it forever if he did not buy it right then. :P You could see in his face, it was just painful to think about walking out of the store without it.

I was sad to see it go though. I probably would not have been able to justify $300 on it, but at least I could have picked it up a few times a day and felt the silky smoothness of its ball bearing pivot and carbon fiber scales.

Poetic. Nice.

[Nihil Obstat]

Poetic. Nice.

Seriously; I was having a sort of transcendent poetical experience just in thinking about it. People should write ballads about that knife.

[mortify ii]

If Holy Scripture were to be read at a Protestand service (as it often is) it would remain Holy Scripture and thus be a channel of grace.

 

Are Protestant communities means of salvation? Do their services carry salvific graces?

[Perigrina]

Are Protestant communities means of salvation? Do their services carry salvific graces?

 

Protestant communities are not, in themselves, means of salvation.  Elements of sanctification and truth can be found in those communities, but the source of these elements is the Catholic Church. Also, these elements lead people to the Catholic Church.

 

I know people, and perhaps you do too, who, while Protestants, studied Scripture and became convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching through this study.  Does that not sound like salvific grace to you?

[mortify ii]

Protestant communities are not, in themselves, means of salvation.  Elements of sanctification and truth can be found in those communities, but the source of these elements is the Catholic Church. Also, these elements lead people to the Catholic Church.

 

I know people, and perhaps you do too, who, while Protestants, studied Scripture and became convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching through this study.  Does that not sound like salvific grace to you?

 

What do you make of this statement:

 

"In this context, it is extremely important to give a correct and fair presentation of the other Churches and ecclesial communities that the Spirit of Christ does not refrain from using as means of salvation; "moreover, some, even very many, of the outstanding elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church herself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church."(85) Among other things this presentation will help Catholics to have both a deeper understanding of their own faith and a better acquaintance with and esteem for their other Christian brethren, thus facilitating the shared search for the way towards full unity in the whole truth. It should also help non-Catholics to have a better knowledge and appreciation of the Catholic Church and her conviction of being the "universal help toward salvation."

[Anastasia13]

This was interesting.

 

http://youtu.be/MXql0zuRqCY

[Eliakim]

You are again turning this into something it is not, since no one is passing judgment on these people.  We were talking about the duty of Catholics who are currently in communion with Rome.  Such Catholics DO NOT have the right to disobey Holy Mother Church, simply because you have a tiff with the current Holy Father.  Such Catholics are called to direct their consciences to the Church on these matters, not themselves.

 

Primacy of conscience is interesting.  Mortify has made clear more than enough he is sincerely searching for a solution.  If after much prayer and counsel he or others concerned about the direction of the hierarchy is unable in good conscience to align with Rome, then according to the teachings of the Church he would not be sinning if he left it's communion.  I do not believe he would even be a formal heretic or schismatic.  But it is a gamble no one takes lightly.  Also interestingly this was Luther's thought process, and so demonstrates this is not a new concept.   

 

Popes and theologians have taught that future Popes can teach heresy, it's not an impossibility, and our response is not one of obedience but resistance.

 

If this topic interests you there is a plethora of information online. 

 

Mortify, I think a distinction must be made.  The Church teaches a Pope will never teach heresy in a definitive manner for the whole Church/ex-cathedra.  Sure, he may be found to have said something heretical (or make poor choices like kissing a book that leads a billion astray) but by faith Catholics believe the Holy Spirit will not allow the Pope to excercise his infallibility heretically. 

 

E

[Eliakim]

Part 2 from above...

 

I am not associated with the SSPX, I'm simply awake to the fact that we are in a crisis, and in fact the worst crisis the Church has every gone through.

 

As for the "greatest Catholic theologians" I don't know who you refer to. It is a dogmatic teaching of the Church that certain persons are destined to eternal separation (mystery of reprobation.) To say hell exists but is empty renders it superfluous and God did not create anything unnecessary. In this respect Von Balthasar is in error, to put it mildly. As an aside, Von Balthasar may also have been an occultist as he wrote the preface to the Meditations on the Tarot, a rather interesting book non the less. 

 

I was not aware the Catholic Church supports (let alone dogmatized) the teaching that some are destined to eternal hell.  Is this significantly different than Calvin's double predestination?  Also interesting point about Balthasar writing that preface.  One wonders what business a priest would have doing that...

 

This was interesting.

 

http://youtu.be/MXql0zuRqCY

 

Yes there is grace outside Catholic communion, but I would very much like to see the quotes from Origen and Irenaeus to that effect that Fr. Barron alludes to.  I have not found this to be the case with either one of these ECFs. 

 

E

[Eliakim]

3 of 3...

 

What do y'all think about this little passage?

 

 

"We must say it clearly: such a concept [of all religions offering salvation] is radically opposed to Catholic dogma. The Church is the one ark of salvation, and we must not be afraid to affirm it.  You have often heard it said, “Outside the Church there is no salvation”--a dictum which offends contemporary minds. It is easy to believe that this doctrine is no longer in effect, that it has been dropped. It seems excessively severe.

Yet nothing, in fact, has changed;  nothing can be changed in this area. Our Lord did not found a number of churches: He founded only One.  There is only one Cross by which we can be saved, and that Cross has been given to the Catholic Church. It has not been given to others.  To His Church, His mystical bride, Christ has given all graces.  No grace in the world, no grace in the history of humanity is distributed except through her.

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state the truth.

But at the cost of what difficulties do people in those countries  where Christianity has not penetrated come to receive baptism by desire! Error is an obstacle to the Holy Ghost.  This explains why the Church has always sent missionaries into all countries of the world, why thousands of them have suffered martyrdom. If salvation can be found in any religion, why cross the seas, why subject oneself to unhealthy climates, to a harsh life, to sickness and an early death? From the martyrdom of St. Stephen onwards (the first to give his life for Christ, and for this reason his feast is the day after Christmas), the Apostles set out to spread the Good News throughout the Mediterranean countries.

Would they have done this if one could be saved by worshipping Cybele or by the mysteries of Eleusis?  Why did Our Lord say to them, “Go and preach the Gospel to all nations?”"

 

Can the Archbishop show us that "implicit baptism of desire" or its equivalent was taught by anyone before Pius IX? 

 

E

[Nihil Obstat]

3 of 3...

 

 

Can the Archbishop show us that "implicit baptism of desire" or its equivalent was taught by anyone before Pius IX? 

 

E

Quite probably. Need we make that effort?