Graces From Protestant Services?

[Fidei Defensor]

Clement of Rome: "The first Christians understood that Peter and his successors held a place of primacy in the Church and exercised authority over it. They believed that a rejection of Peter’s authority was a rejection of Christ’s authority. As the Scriptures tell us, Peter and Peter alone received the keys of the kingdom with the power to bind and loose"

 

If the Pope is a valid successor to Peter, you are obligated to submit to his authority. Rejection of his authority is a rejection of Christ's authority, since it was Christ who gave authority to Peter and his successors. 

[Credo in Deum]

The SSPX and Sedevacantists believe the recent Popes are the cause of the crisis we are currently in and so they are bound by conscience to resist the Popes they believe are destroying the Church, as some of our greatest and holiest theologians have taught, e.g. Cajetan. So again, this is a complicated matter, we were never in a situation like this before, and I will not criticize, attack, or demean an orthodox Catholic for what they believe to be the nature of the crisis we are in, even if I may personally disagree with them. 

 

You are again turning this into something it is not, since no one is passing judgment on these people.  We were talking about the duty of Catholics who are currently in communion with Rome.  Such Catholics DO NOT have the right to disobey Holy Mother Church, simply because you have a tiff with the current Holy Father.  Such Catholics are called to direct their consciences to the Church on these matters, not themselves.

[Basilisa Marie]

The SSPX and Sedevacantists believe the recent Popes are the cause of the crisis we are currently in and so they are bound by conscience to resist the Popes they believe are destroying the Church, as some of our greatest and holiest theologians have taught, e.g. Cajetan. So again, this is a complicated matter, we were never in a situation like this before, and I will not criticize, attack, or demean an orthodox Catholic for what they believe to be the nature of the crisis we are in, even if I may personally disagree with them. 

 

Many SSPX reject Vatican II (not all, but enough to create an environment that often fosters rejecting the council), and Sedevacantists believe the last couple of popes weren't really popes. If these people really were orthodox, they'd swallow their arrogance and practice obedience. You cannot reject an ecumenical council and you cannot reject the pope. While lay people may certainly attend an SSPX parish without falling into sin (as the SSPX is really an organization for clergy), it's certainly not the safest thing to do. Lumping the FSSP in with them in the same breath blurs important distinctions between the two groups.

 

The "bound by conscience" idea is a slippery slope, you can't just let people who pass your litmus test of Catholic enough use it, especially when we're talking about people who foster heresy. 

 

You're making a lot of very serious accusations, but when you're asked to offer what you'd do differently you hide behind the "it's not my place to judge" and "conscience" clauses. All this does is stir up dissent and division without any real "end."  How about you come up with something we can work with? 

[Credo in Deum]

Many SSPX reject Vatican II (not all, but enough to create an environment that often fosters rejecting the council), and Sedevacantists believe the last couple of popes weren't really popes. If these people really were orthodox, they'd swallow their arrogance and practice obedience. You cannot reject an ecumenical council and you cannot reject the pope. While lay people may certainly attend an SSPX parish without falling into sin (as the SSPX is really an organization for clergy), it's certainly not the safest thing to do. Lumping the FSSP in with them in the same breath blurs important distinctions between the two groups.

 

The "bound by conscience" idea is a slippery slope, you can't just let people who pass your litmus test of Catholic enough use it, especially when we're talking about people who foster heresy. 

 

You're making a lot of very serious accusations, but when you're asked to offer what you'd do differently you hide behind the "it's not my place to judge" and "conscience" clauses. All this does is stir up dissent and division without any real "end."  How about you come up with something we can work with? 

 

Thank you for stating this better than I ever could.  

 

God bless. 

[mortify ii]

If the Pope is a valid successor to Peter, you are obligated to submit to his authority. Rejection of his authority is a rejection of Christ's authority, since it was Christ who gave authority to Peter and his successors. 

 

Yes, but what about this...

 

 

“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.”

(Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878), Letter to Bishop Brizen)

 

 

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

(St. Athanasius († 373), Epistle to the Catholics)

 

 

“If the pope gives an order contrary to right customs, heshould not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him; if he attacks by force, by force he can be repelled, with a moderation appropriate to a just defence.” (Francisco Suarez S.J. († 1617), De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, N. 16)

 

“Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed.”

(The Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, S.J. († 1621), De Romano Pontifice, Lib. II, Ch. 29)

 

“For the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.” (First Vatican Council, Pastor Aeternus, cap. 4)

[Credo in Deum]

Yes, but what about this...

 

 

“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.”

(Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878), Letter to Bishop Brizen)

 

 

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

(St. Athanasius († 373), Epistle to the Catholics)

 

 

“If the pope gives an order contrary to right customs, heshould not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him; if he attacks by force, by force he can be repelled, with a moderation appropriate to a just defence.” (Francisco Suarez S.J. († 1617), De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, N. 16)

 

“Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed.”

(The Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, S.J. († 1621), De Romano Pontifice, Lib. II, Ch. 29)

 

“For the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.” (First Vatican Council, Pastor Aeternus, cap. 4)

 

 

Please list the charges against the current Papacy.   What things have they done unlawfully?  

[Fidei Defensor]

Yes, but what about this...

 

 

“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.”

(Venerable Pope Pius IX († 1878), Letter to Bishop Brizen)

 

 

“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

(St. Athanasius († 373), Epistle to the Catholics)

 

 

“If the pope gives an order contrary to right customs, heshould not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him; if he attacks by force, by force he can be repelled, with a moderation appropriate to a just defence.” (Francisco Suarez S.J. († 1617), De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, N. 16)

 

“Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed.”

(The Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, S.J. († 1621), De Romano Pontifice, Lib. II, Ch. 29)

 

“For the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.” (First Vatican Council, Pastor Aeternus, cap. 4)

You hold the burden of showing us what is being taught that is contrary and against the Catholic Faith.  Your last quote is exactly what I'm trying to point out—that the Holy Spirit guards the faith. The Holy Father is protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit.

[mortify ii]

Peace be with you Basilisa,

 

Many SSPX reject Vatican II (not all, but enough to create an environment that often fosters rejecting the council), and Sedevacantists believe the last couple of popes weren't really popes. If these people really were orthodox, they'd swallow their arrogance and practice obedience. You cannot reject an ecumenical council and you cannot reject the pope. While lay people may certainly attend an SSPX parish without falling into sin (as the SSPX is really an organization for clergy), it's certainly not the safest thing to do. Lumping the FSSP in with them in the same breath blurs important distinctions between the two groups.? 

 

This is a very sensitive topic and I agree with you that humility and obedience are needed but even I read statement in Vatican II and find myself scratching my head. For example, in GS #12 it states, "According to the almost unanimous opinion of believers and unbelievers alike, all things on earth should be related to man as their center and crown." If someone had quoted this to me without the source and asked what my opinion on this would be from a Catholic perspective, I would have to say that it's blasphemous, but unfortunately it was not written in some secularist journal, rather it comes from a supposed Ecumenical Council. I struggle with examples like this, and I don't feel I'm just being "arrogant" and "disobedient." Man is not the center and crown of my life, Jesus is, and my conscience does not permit me to accept this statement even though it comes from a Council. I have not run off to the SSPX or Sedevacantists, and quite frankly I don't agree with them, but at the same time I honestly can't blame them. Who knows what the future generations will think of our times.

 

 

[mortify ii]

You hold the burden of showing us what is being taught that is contrary and against the Catholic Faith.  Your last quote is exactly what I'm trying to point out—that the Holy Spirit guards the faith. The Holy Father is protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit.

 

Popes and theologians have taught that future Popes can teach heresy, it's not an impossibility, and our response is not one of obedience but resistance.

 

If this topic interests you there is a plethora of information online. 

[Credo in Deum]

8 pages and you have nothing to show as evidence.  Not a good start. 

[Guest]

Yes, that is true, but we also were made aware of a great apostasy and a falling away of the hierarchy.

4th time asking for an explanation...

[Guest]

I think I'll just join a non denomational church since the gates of hell will not prevail thing isn't true...Thanks for your help Mortify.....I always wanted to be non denomational anyways......I just thought remaining Catholic was what the Holy Spirit wanted......Apparently not and I shoulda listened to those who quoted Revelations a long time ago and told me "to come out out of her so I don't partake in her sins."

Edited May 6, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

Can we get this guy a phishy label that would be nice...

[mortify ii]

What if I bow down to and kiss the Quran, Josh, would you promote me getting a Church Militant label?

[Fidei Defensor]

What if I bow down to and kiss the Quran, Josh, would you promote me getting a Church Militant label?

You're really hung up on that, aren't you?