Graces From Protestant Services?

[mortify ii]

"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the ction of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

 

"It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

 

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO #3

 

 

Am I the only one who reads a Vatican II statement and has to ask themselves what they just read? The English translation speaks of engendering a "life of grace" and giving access to the "community of salvation." The Latin reads, "Vitam gratiae reapse generare possunt atque aptae dicendae sunt quae ingressum in salutis communionem pandant." or as the glorious google translate has it, "The life of grace are the things that are able to generate entry into salvation." So salvific grace exists in non-Catholic services?

 

The recently canonized John Paul II has something very similar to say:

 

"In this context, it is extremely important to give a correct and fair presentation of the other Churches and ecclesial communities that the Spirit of Christ does not refrain from using as means of salvation; "moreover, some, even very many, of the outstanding elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church herself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church."(85) Among other things this presentation will help Catholics to have both a deeper understanding of their own faith and a better acquaintance with and esteem for their other Christian brethren, thus facilitating the shared search for the way towards full unity in the whole truth. It should also help non-Catholics to have a better knowledge and appreciation of the Catholic Church and her conviction of being the "universal help toward salvation."

 

CATECHESI TRADENDAE  #32

 

 

So yes, apparently these separated communities and "churches" are conduits of salvation, and furthermore, we ought to learn and esteem these separated paths that we may join hands to a fuller unity an fuller knowledge of the truth! 

 

Ok, let's get smacked with some Catholic teaching:

 

The Apostle warns us: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." Let them tremble (!) then who imagine that every creed leads by an easy path to the port of felicity; and reflect seriously...that consequently they will perish eternally without any doubt, if they do not hold to the Catholic Faith, and preserve it entire and without alteration.

 

And since this is impossible outside Catholic unity, "those who are not united to the Chair of Peter are in error in flattering themselves that they too are regenerated in the water of salvation." St. Augustine would reply to them in the same terms: "The branch lopped off has the shape of the vine; but what avails the form if it have not the root?

 

Pope Gregory XVI. Mirari Vos

 

So who is right? I'll stick with what was always believed.

 

http://catholicism.org/eens-fathers.html

[mortify ii]

Yo, members of the Church of the New Advent, listen up!

 

“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

(St Augustine. Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

[John Ryan]

I am of the Balthasarian persuasion who reasonably hopes that all men will be saved.

[mortify ii]

I am of the Balthasarian persuasion who reasonably hopes that all men will be saved.

 

Balthasar proposed an empty hell, if I'm not mistaken. 

[John Ryan]

Balthasar proposed an empty hell, if I'm not mistaken. 

 

Father Balthasar proposed that because God is a Universal Love that Catholics should reasonably hope that all people will be saved. Father Robert Barron has a video on it.

 

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmsa0sg4Od4[/video]

[mortify ii]

Spiritually immature position to hold

[John Ryan]

Spiritually immature position to hold

 

I will take that as a compliment from somebody who is SSPX-inclined. It cannot sting exactly when some of the greatest Catholic theologians have come to similar conclusions. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by John Ryan

[CrossCuT]

I believe its not contrary to catholic belief that it is possible for someone to not be Catholic and not even have a conscious notion of God and still go to heaven if they live a good, loving life.

 

[Credo in Deum]

I will take that as a compliment from somebody who is SSPX-inclined. It cannot sting exactly when some of the greatest Catholic theologians have come to similar conclusions. 

Do you have a list of the other Catholic theologians that have come to this conclusion? 

[John Ryan]

I believe its not contrary to catholic belief that it is possible for someone to not be Catholic and not even have a conscious notion of God and still go to heaven if they live a good, loving life.

 

I think the Roman Catholic Church would disagree with that statement.

 

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

 

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

 

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

 

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

 

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

Do you have a list of the other Catholic theologians that have come to this conclusion? 

 

Origen of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa and Clement of Alexandria are three that come immediately to mind. The Apocalypse of Peter was also widely read by the early Christian communities.  

Edited May 3, 2014 by John Ryan

[Credo in Deum]

I think the Roman Catholic Church would disagree with that statement.

 

 

Origen of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa and Clement of Alexandria are three that come immediately to mind. The Apocalypse of Peter was also widely read by the early Christian communities.  

Thank you.  If you can, could you please site which works of their express this view? This whole theologian's say "reasonable hope" vs. Christ's "Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it", has always interested me.  

[John Ryan]

Thank you.  If you can, could you please site which works of their express this view? This whole theologian's say "reasonable hope" vs. Christ's "Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who enter in through it", has always interested me.  

 

I do not have citations at the moment. I am not exactly a theologian, so this is not my expertise. The writings of the Fathers is so vast, I forget where they are. 

 

Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI, back when he was still Joseph Ratzinger, wisely wrote:

 

"It seems as if we want to be rewarded, not just with our own salvation, but most especially with other people's damnation—just like the workers hired in the first hour. That is very human, but the Lord's parable is particularly meant to make us quite aware of how profoundly un-Christian it is at the same time. Anyone who looks on the loss of salvation for others as the condition, as it were, on which he serves Christ will in the end only be able to turn away grumbling, because that kind of reward is contrary to the loving-kindness of God."

[CrossCuT]

I could definitly be wrong John, but I thought the idea he was that God is love...therefore someone with and honest heart that leads a good life and has no concenpt of God through no fault of their own can still go to heaven. I really dont think God is going to say "Hey, too bad for you lol" when it was not their fault they had any concept of God or the church.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

THis is kind of what Im referencing. BUt here they say a person through no fault of their own doesnt know theh  gospel or the church can still go to heaven if they seek God with a sincere heart etc etc. What does it mean to seek God exactly? What if they dont even know that a God exists? I always thought that this was more meant in the respect that the outward expression of Christs love is the same as knowing God in the sense that this person has no real concept otherwise.

[John Ryan]

I could definitly be wrong John, but I thought the idea he was that God is love...therefore someone with and honest heart that leads a good life and has no concenpt of God through no fault of their own can still go to heaven. I really dont think God is going to say "Hey, too bad for you lol" when it was not their fault they had any concept of God or the church.

THis is kind of what Im referencing. BUt here they say a person through no fault of their own doesnt know theh  gospel or the church can still go to heaven if they seek God with a sincere heart etc etc. What does it mean to seek God exactly? What if they dont even know that a God exists? I always thought that this was more meant in the respect that the outward expression of Christs love is the same as knowing God in the sense that this person has no real concept otherwise.

 

I believe the quote in the CCC is taken from a part of Lumen Gentium that addresses other religious faiths. It seems to me that the intent is not so much directly those who have never heard the Gospel, but rather that it also accounts for cultural and epistemological concerns. So, for example, if someone is Chinese and has never grown up with religion in their life, she is not rejecting Christ simply because she has heard of Christianity. She is open to salvation so long as she cooperates with the grace God has given to her—lives with a soft-heart, loves others, shows mercy, etc. The idea that the CCC is trying to get across, in my humble opinion, is that a Luciferian revolt is what truly cuts us off from God; if we known in our heart that Christ is the Son of God and that the Church is truth, but still refuse serve Christ and His Church.

[CrossCuT]

 So, for example, if someone is Chinese and has never grown up with religion in their life, she is not rejecting Christ simply because she has heard of Christianity. She is open to salvation so long as she cooperates with the grace God has given to her—lives with a soft-heart, loves others, shows mercy, etc. 

 

Yes I agree with you there. I guess thats all I was trying to say in the first place haha! Articulation is not my strong point.

 

The one group of poeple I always think about are some of the very very few still existing indigenous tribes that have 0 contact with the outside world. If they died without knowing God or the church, is it really their fault? Should they be condemned to Hell? I dont think so, and I dont think God would hold it against them if they didnt know him.

 

But it seems we are in agreement anyway :)