Fidei Defensor Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 The only time I honestly feel "bad" about my SSA is when I'm treated as less than human or treated as just a condition. I'm a child of God and I was given a cross to carry through my whole life. It'll be worth it, in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 This also the link to the American Psychiatric Association http://www.psychiatry.org/lgbt-sexual-orientation This primer from the American Psychological Association (aimed at educators) deals with many issues, including it's lack of support for those attempting to treat or change sexual orientation. http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.aspx?item=1 Many of the faith based clinics or ministries that aimed to treat and change a persons sexual orientation have greatly diminished. Some, like Exodus International, have closed and apologized. There are some groups, mostly evangelicals, who realized the damage they were doing and now help support those with SSA to find a safe place within existing Church communities. They saw, like many families and professionals, accept that people (even if willing) cannot eradicate SSA. The extent many LGBT people went to continue to follow Jesus by creating their own denominations and churches during periods of rejection is amazing, especially if you think of the pain and behaviour they have historically received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 sigh. so I believe if you read the thread I have already discussed at length the ethical implications of what is currently possible. Kindly read. Many people who experience same sex attraction would choose not to experience it, if that choice was practical, ethical, and possible. For many reasons - unjust social persecution, for example. But also because they have the perfectly natural human longing to have children with the person they love most. I do not think the day is too far coming when making that choice will become a practical and ethical possibility. Parents may be able to choose it for their children, or adults may be able to choose it for themselves. Whether through gene therapy, neural reconsolidation, or however medicine advances. I don't feel nervous saying it is inevitable. And then doctors will have to decide whether to treat or not treat. In the same way they decide whether to treat or not treat deaf patients. Many people in the deaf community feared the development of cochlear implants - they felt it would "exterminate" them, stigmatize those who chose to remain deaf, destroy their culture. We can fear these things or we can rejoice in the new opportunities they offer people. When that day comes it will not be enough for you to quote a press release from the APA. And in the meantime, I hope you become the kind of doctor who realizes that he and his professional association are not the arbiter of what constitutes dysfunction in a patient's life. What has sexual orientation and the person they love got to do with having children? Do you know about Bishop Gene Robinson? He was married, had children, was driven to drink and emotional collapse. He was Gay during all that - he underwent conversion therapy also. I'll believe these new scientific possibilities you outline when I see them materialize. But, from an ethical perspective, they raise as many questions (if not more) than some other 'advances' that Catholics would view as immoral or reject. I can't help think maybe time and money would be better spent on finding better treatment and cures for childhood cancer or something, I mean really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Oh nooooo they're arguing about it again Actually, this is a more interesting debate then the usual terminological stuff that people get hung up on. I'm not particularly offended by the idea that one day SCIENCE may be able to cure teh gay in me, because honestly its kind of a rough deal; the only non-spiritual benefit I seem to accrue from my struggles and whatnot these days is the joke immunity it gives me (I'm also of Jewish descent. If only I were also a black woman. I'd have total joke immunity). Having said that, I don't live with bated breath for the day that that will happen. It is better for me to focus on how I can live out my current state of life faithfully and joyfully than pine for one which may or may not ever come about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 What has sexual orientation and the person they love got to do with having children? Do you know about Bishop Gene Robinson? He was married, had children, was driven to drink and emotional collapse. He was Gay during all that - he underwent conversion therapy also. I'll believe these new scientific possibilities you outline when I see them materialize. But, from an ethical perspective, they raise as many questions (if not more) than some other 'advances' that Catholics would view as immoral or reject. I can't help think maybe time and money would be better spent on finding better treatment and cures for childhood cancer or something, I mean really... It is impossible for two men or two women to make a baby together. It is perhaps the most natural human longing in the world for a person to want to make a baby with the person they love most. It's a source of deep suffering for many people with SSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Oh nooooo they're arguing about it again Actually, this is a more interesting debate then the usual terminological stuff that people get hung up on. I'm not particularly offended by the idea that one day SCIENCE may be able to cure teh gay in me, because honestly its kind of a rough deal; the only non-spiritual benefit I seem to accrue from my struggles and whatnot these days is the joke immunity it gives me (I'm also of Jewish descent. If only I were also a black woman. I'd have total joke immunity). Having said that, I don't live with bated breath for the day that that will happen. It is better for me to focus on how I can live out my current state of life faithfully and joyfully than pine for one which may or may not ever come about. But if you took away your sexual orientation (or changed it), your experiences that have made you as you are, and so on then would you still be the same person? Would it cause a crisis of identity? It's possible, at least to argue, if ones sexual orientation is changed in a flash they'd be a different person. Would someone who is female and then become male be the same? Would a black person be the same if they could be white? I'm not sure such things are purely limited or independent of 'us' but anchored to our souls development in some way and create (manifest, whatever) a specific cause and effect pattern that makes us who we are, warts and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitamin Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 sigh. so I believe if you read the thread I have already discussed at length the ethical implications of what is currently possible. Kindly read. Many people who experience same sex attraction would choose not to experience it, if that choice was practical, ethical, and possible. For many reasons - unjust social persecution, for example. But also because they have the perfectly natural human longing to have children with the person they love most. I do not think the day is too far coming when making that choice will become a practical and ethical possibility. Parents may be able to choose it for their children, or adults may be able to choose it for themselves. Whether through gene therapy, neural reconsolidation, or however medicine advances. I don't feel nervous saying it is inevitable.And then doctors will have to decide whether to treat or not treat. In the same way they decide whether to treat or not treat deaf patients. Many people in the deaf community feared the development of cochlear implants - they felt it would "exterminate" them, stigmatize those who chose to remain deaf, destroy their culture. We can fear these things or we can rejoice in the new opportunities they offer people. When that day comes it will not be enough for you to quote a press release from the APA. And in the meantime, I hope you become the kind of doctor who realizes that he and his professional association are not the arbiter of what constitutes dysfunction in a patient's life. The thing going against this is that society is progressing into viewing gay rights in terms of equality, not disability. So when the day comes there may not be any societal pressure to change. As for children, I've never met a gay person who wanted biological children, but there are other ways of going about that like IVF or hell, even a turkey baster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 But if you took away your sexual orientation (or changed it), your experiences that have made you as you are, and so on then would you still be the same person? Would it cause a crisis of identity? It's possible, at least to argue, if ones sexual orientation is changed in a flash they'd be a different person. Would someone who is female and then become male be the same? Would a black person be the same if they could be white? I'm not sure such things are purely limited or independent of 'us' but anchored to our souls development in some way and create (manifest, whatever) a specific cause and effect pattern that makes us who we are, warts and all. Don't get me wrong; I don't wish my actual life was different from the way it played out. I think that my experiences growing up gay and whatnot have helped make me more compassionate and sensitive towards people I don't understand, etc. and that they even contributed to my eventual conversion. There are few unmixed goods and evils in this life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedictus Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 It is impossible for two men or two women to make a baby together. It is perhaps the most natural human longing in the world for a person to want to make a baby with the person they love most. It's a source of deep suffering for many people with SSA. Well unless the two lesbians find the two Gay men and they come to an arrangement :paperbag: But that obviously wouldn't be the same as a heterosexual couple having their own biological child. But if a Gay man loves another man then how is making one, or either of them, have diminished SSA helping them have children? Do you believe stopping the SSA will remove the love that's also there? Or is rewiring them to cancel all this experience and emotional connection the scientific development you are suggesting? Last I heard it was becoming possible to have a baby with the genetic material of three adults. Maybe this will reach the same end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 The thing going against this is that society is progressing into viewing gay rights in terms of equality, not disability. So when the day comes there may not be any societal pressure to change. As for children, I've never met a gay person who wanted biological children, but there are other ways of going about that like IVF or hell, even a turkey baster. Dear Lord. This post. I can't even. But just so you know. Even with a "turkey baster" a girl cannot get pregnant by another girl. Fact: Many gay people are like straight people in wanting to have, and raise children with, the person they love most. Which is impossible for a man who loves a man most. Or a woman who loves a woman most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregorMendel Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Dear Lord. This post. I can't even. But just so you know. Even with a "turkey baster" a girl cannot get pregnant by another girl. Fact: Many gay people are like straight people in wanting to have, and raise children with, the person they love most. Which is impossible for a man who loves a man most. Or a woman who loves a woman most. I think the point is that "The person they love most" isnt going to change :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (I'm not gonna lie; I've been looking for an excuse to use that gif for a while) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) I think the point is that "The person they love most" isnt going to change :) I would respectfully challenge that. * not to say that what I am talking about would flip some kind of switch and end relationships or something. But recognizing that sexual attraction is an integral part of most romantic relationships. Edited May 1, 2014 by Lilllabettt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitamin Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Well unless the two lesbians find the two Gay men and they come to an arrangement :paperbag: But that obviously wouldn't be the same as a heterosexual couple having their own biological child. But if a Gay man loves another man then how is making one, or either of them, have diminished SSA helping them have children? Do you believe stopping the SSA will remove the love that's also there? Or is rewiring them to cancel all this experience and emotional connection the scientific development you are suggesting? Last I heard it was becoming possible to have a baby with the genetic material of three adults. Maybe this will reach the same end The thing that gets me the most is why a gay person would want to have biological children so badly. I mean, if you love another person it really shouldn't matter if you can have children together, so what is this? Just fulfilling a base impulse? Why? Does everybody with a set of gentilia need to have babies for crying out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitamin Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 I would respectfully challenge that. * not to say that what I am talking about would flip some kind of switch and end relationships or something. But recognizing that sexual attraction is an integral part of most romantic relationships. I don't think you fully understand what it means to "love someone the most" if you think it works that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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