The Third Way: Homosexuality And The Catholic Church

[The Bus Station]

Conversations gettin weird. Duckin out. :P I hope you guys come to many fruitful conclusions.

 

[arfink]

Well, sure.  But I'm specifically talking about a complete 180.  Though the feeling is alien to me, I can imagine becoming sexually attracted to a woman, sure.  I don't think I'll ever not be attracted to men, though.  And I think this is true for most adults with SSA.  That's all I'm saying.

 

edited for grahmmar

 

No, I suppose not. I know of adults with SSA coming to find heterosexual sex gratifying (see CatherineM's comment too) but I don't think I've heard of people with SSA finding that they can no longer be attracted to the same sex.

[havok579257]

I know a Catholic gay man, an ex-Methodist minister, who was kicked out of his ministry after the church found out he was gay. Now, he serves Communion in a Catholic parish every Sunday. This man has also, over the course of our friendship, happened to share his walk with God with me. I don't see how his relationship with God is any lesser than anyone else's that I've seen. I don't see how, just because he has gay sex, that makes him some sort of illegitimate son, or however you would see his relationship with God. I mean, you can try to say "because the two become one flesh" instead of "because a penis goes in a vagainia" but you're just being less crude about it. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig.

 

 

because having homosexual sex is one of the sins that cry out to heaven per the bible.  because the church says homosexual sex is wrong.  its basic catholic teaching to say homosexual sex is a serious sin.

[Basilisa Marie]

Blerg nevermind.  

 

Edited April 30, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[RC Patriot]

Actually, a majority of those who experience ssa as teens do not have ssa by the time they are about 26 years old. Ippersonally have at least two friends (and I suspect one other, though we've never had that conversation) who can identify with that experience and are now happily married. SSA can be reversed. Like any sin, we can often find a progression of issues leading to that sin. I would bet that most of us can agree that with our first experience with masturbation, a wall was broken down that made it much easier to offend again. Some may have found it easier to fall into deeper sexual sins, and breaking free of that is extremely difficult. The walls cannot be rebuilt. It is far easier to resist the first temptation. So it is with drugs, cheating, and everything else.

But likewise, doing good, building virtue, becomes easier with time. Fr. Corapi (who I will maintain had excellent content) described sin and prayer using laws of physics. "Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion."

[Lilllabettt]

It depends on how deeply rooted the homosexual attraction is.  I'm assuming you are straight.  Do you think it is entirely reasonable that you, as an adult, could become exclusively homosexual, if, as you say, the "right buttons" were pushed?

 

Edit: I intend no snark and took no offense to your post - honest question :)

 

 

The fact that you cannot imagine being attracted another way speaks to the strength of current conditioning, not its indelible character. But, like I said, I think a sexual behavioral response to certain stimuli may be impossible to adapt, on a practical level. The linkage is too strong, pathway potentiation is long term and irreversible. Although right now there is a lot of interest being generated around research being done on neural re-consolidation. Groundbreaking stuff. 

 

But I do believe that given enough time and free of of ethical constraint, typical individuals could be taught to find one category of stimuli sexually repulsive and another category of stimuli sexually arousing. I see the sexual response as a primarily behavioral, not cognitive process. So behaviorist principles apply.

 

In application it may be unethical and practically speaking an impossible undertaking.

 

I personally cannot imagine being sexually or romantically attracted to my own sex. But yes, I believe I could develop that kind of behavior pattern given the right kind of conditioning. Exclusive homosexuality would be more of a challenge, because it would require not only forging a stimuli/sexual response but uncoupling of a stimuli/sexual response. Much harder and the experimental conditions that I can imagine would be necessary would be unethical. 

[Benedictus]

Considering some of the terrible physical and psychological experiments that have happened in the past I'm glad for the ethical grounding. Such activities, like extreme aversion therapy, on those with SSA (as was chemical experiments)  were very damaging. I don't see sexual orientation as behavioural. Some sexual acts can be a reaction to behavioural, situational or psychological (negative/positive impulses) factors but I don't see them as the same thing as the person's core orientation. There also has to be a recognition that people can have a core sexual attraction but choose to identify or behave in different ways under certain pressure or situations. But it doesn't, for want of a better word, remove or cure the person of their other attractions. There is lots of research on the sexual spectrum of orientation (heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, intersex, transexuality etc) in humans and other animals for many years. Those clinging to Freudian, or any other sort of philosophical or religious dictates, to drive a person towards a specific therapeutic outcome often do more harm than good. There have been people, professional and otherwise, who have been overstepping the mark (and overstating their case) for years, contrary to the research and guidance of the main professional bodies in these areas.

[Credo in Deum]

I had some clients once who both had SSA. Male and female. Who decided that they wanted a normal life with kids. They got married, had kids, and both eventually came to be sexually attracted to their spouses more than they had ever had to someone of the same sex.

I suppose my first thought was that they were kidding themselves. Then I thought maybe it was chemical. He told me once that it didn't matter, gay, straight, or other, that you at some point in order to have a monogamous relationship, that you settle for the sexual release you will get with one person. There's always going to be someone out there younger or prettier or sexier. Most of us settle though for one person eventually. They decided to settle for each other.

 

I like this post because I think it displays a truth that is often missed.  We are human beings capable of love, period.  For human beings love is not tied down or limited to specific genders, persons, places, or things. Our love is also not limited to the attractions that we hold to specific genders at this present moment, since attractions do and can change.  Those of us who have SSA and say they could never be attracted to a person of the opposite sex, and vice versa, not only limit themselves, but they also deny the Almighty power of God, Who can do all things.

 

 

Furthermore, to say you could only be attracted to a certain gender, also denies the reality that mankind was made body AND soul, and that in the end we do not fall in love with a person’s gender but rather with their personality; their soul.  It is the soul of the other person that captures us and wants us to spend our life with them, even when the bodily passions and physical attractions die off.   Because it is the personality of the person and not the gender, this means all of us are not only capable but susceptible to falling in love with anyone, regardless of gender!  Those who say they cannot are like the Christians that say they could never do such and such a sin, falsely attributing this inability to themselves, when it is really a grace from God.  Without God's grace, every human being is capable of sinking down to the lowest depths of sin as Judas, Hitler, and etc.   As St. Philip Neri said when he saw a convicted murderer going to their execution: "There goes Philip, but for the grace of God."  

 

Lastly because we fall in love with a person’s soul, and because God's will is solely concerned with the salvation of souls, this then means we only truly and properly love another person when our actions are in line with His Commandments/Doctrines. If they're not in line with His commandments, then our love is disordered and not genuine. 

 

 

 

God bless. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[CrossCuT]

Do you have any articles, papers, or studies you can link to support your claims Lilll? Id be very curious to read them. As of right now, my understanding is that it is still on the stove as to what is really behind homosexuality but I think you are going in the right direction. I, personally, try to be as open on this topic as possible in order to understand precisely what the main body of knowledge on the subject currently is. If we are to use any model to help people, we need to understand as much as possible. That is something I strive to do.

 

The idea that this is purely psychological could be argued for, but you have to remember that everything is based in chemical and biological processes which I am sure you know. I have mentioned this before, but there was a great article that looked into behavioral changes in mice depending on the level of care they received from their mother.

 

The behavior itself is something we can see and study and I think a lot of time people forget that this isnt just some fleeting magical happenstance., All outward characteristics whether it is a physical trait or a behavior can be traced to your base chemical processes. And in the case of the mice, researchers found a connection in their epigenome.

 

What genes are turned on or turned off? Or up or down regulated? They all have an effect. Nothing is just a mysterious physiological behavior...it all has a cause that can be pin pointed (at some point). Obviously not all things are that easy since humans are complex specimens to examine, but thats why we have model organism etc etc.

 

 

[CrossCuT]

Here is a link to TIMES discussing the epigenome theory behind homosexuality which, in my opinion, is the most compelling idea put forward on the subject that I have read.

 

http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/13/new-insight-into-the-epigenetic-roots-of-homosexuality/

 

 

 

 Epigenetics is not a new concept exactly, but the field has exploded within the past decade. Where once it seemed that genes and environment were distinct, or that nature and nurture were distinct, now it seems clear that environment itself may change the ways in which our genes function – even though the genes themselves are essentially fixed over time, barring occasional mutations, and conserved across generations.

 

Its cool stuff if you like to read that kinda thing. :)

[CatherineM]

No, I suppose not. I know of adults with SSA coming to find heterosexual sex gratifying (see CatherineM's comment too) but I don't think I've heard of people with SSA finding that they can no longer be attracted to the same sex.

That was the point I was trying to make. Even when married, you will find other people sexually attractive, but you choose to remain faithful.

[CrossCuT]

I think it attraction to multiple people makes complete sense from a biological standpoint. There are few species that are monogamous and humans are one of the few. Most other species have multiple sexual partners in their lifetime.

 

And in my many discussions with homosexual friends, they describe homosexuality as a spectrum, not an all or nothing deal. So the idea that someone might have an attraction to one sex during a certain part and then "change" to the other sex alter really doesnt prove they switched allegiances. I think its more that they have varying degrees of bisexuality and it manifests when they find someone they are attracted to.

[arfink]

I think it attraction to multiple people makes complete sense from a biological standpoint. There are few species that are monogamous and humans are one of the few. Most other species have multiple sexual partners in their lifetime.

 

And in my many discussions with homosexual friends, they describe homosexuality as a spectrum, not an all or nothing deal. So the idea that someone might have an attraction to one sex during a certain part and then "change" to the other sex alter really doesnt prove they switched allegiances. I think its more that they have varying degrees of bisexuality and it manifests when they find someone they are attracted to.

 

Well yeah, that reflects the animal-like portion of ourselves. But humans are a strange hybrid. The Catholic understanding of anthropology stems from the fact that we are "made in God's image," while still being fleshy like the animals. We are, literally, made of both the stuff of animals and the stuff of God.

 

Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you feel on the matter) we are not totally beholden to the animal part, and are in fact called to something so much greater. That's what the Church is trying to convey in her sexual ethics.

[CrossCuT]

I think you are speaking from a spiritual perspective. There is nothing literally/physically hyrbrid about humans from a biological standpoint. Do you mean hybrid in the sense that we have physical bodies and a soul?

[Fidei Defensor]

I think you are speaking from a spiritual perspective. There is nothing literally/physically hyrbrid about humans from a biological standpoint. Do you mean hybrid in the sense that we have physical bodies and a soul?

We're made of star stuff and a spark of the Divine.