The Third Way: Homosexuality And The Catholic Church

[PhuturePriest]

Masturbation is indeed a silent plague. I remember years ago there used to be a thread here on Phatmass, for those who struggled with that particular sin, to band together and support one another in their battles. We should revive that!

 

It is very annoying how people never talk about it. People always focus on pornography, even though masturbation has the same effects on the brain, and worse, you can't escape your temptation. With pornography, you can throw away your phone and internet, and you're safe as long as you're in your house. You can't do that with masturbation.

 

But the fact that people only ever talk about pornography can make it seem like masturbation is a secondary issue to it, even though this is untrue. Last summer, I went on a Catholic teen mission called Prayer & Action, where teens dedicate a week to doing charity work like painting houses and fixing yards for the poor and elderly. On one of the nights, they separate the men and girls and have two big discussion groups. In the boys discussion group, the male staff (mostly seminarians) told us we could talk about literally anything we wanted, be it pornography, dating, discernment, etc. There were thirty guys in the room, and for the entire hour that it went on, we talked about almost nothing else but masturbation. The word "pornography" wasn't even said except the one time they mentioned it at the very beginning. This says to me that we really need to burst this social rule that we can't talk about it or mention it, because it's the real issue underlying pornography. Without masturbation there would be no pornography, in my opinion.

[arfink]

Vitamin, dude, read scripture. It's one of the two sins that calls out for vengeance. 

 

Study the catechism. It's gravely disordered. 

 

I have nothing but admiration for people who struggle with same sex attraction. Engaging in homosexual sex is not only a grave sin, it was condemned across the board, old testament, new testament, and in different cultural contexts. If he's doing that continually, without trying to turn away, he shouldn't be serving at Mass.

 

It's not the same as masturbation, which can be a grave sin and is not found in scripture let alone in the same context, and it's not the same as heterosexual sex, for similar reasons. For the record, masturbation can be overcome with enough Ave Marias. 

 

edit: And I suspect any sexual temptation for that matter.. 

 

Forgive me for laughing at this. 15 years of Aves here, and other mortifications besides, and still not overcome. My story is hardly unique.

[AugustineA]

It's all good Arfink. It's different for everyone. I struggled for years. Keep up the good fight. :)

[Lilllabettt]

Sexual attraction is a behavioral response triggered by hormonal changes produced by brain activity. It's not a magical mystical hardwired identity. (that argument, btw, is rooted in homophobia; it was first suggested by people who were anxious to insist that "they" could "never" be gay).

 

Sorry friends. Push the right buttons in the right order often enough and you can be sexually attracted to a turkey sandwhich. Its why child victims of sexual abuse are more likely to grow up to be predators themselves. Its why pornography warps relationships.

 

some things are harder to overturn than others. some things are so hard for some people  to overturn that they are in fact, impossible to overturn as a practical matter.

but the idea that sexual attraction is by nature binary, fixed or hardwired ... that friends is just dumb as a box of rocks.

 

 

 

 

[Benedictus]

Praise God there is more hope and renewal than this.  Do not believe the lie that this can never be changed.  There is a Fourth Way:

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/life-and-family/homosexuality/the-homosexual-condition-can-it-be-changed-prevented/

 

and a site that has videos and teaches Truth:

http://truthministry.org/

 

Love in Christ, but turn from sin and "be transformed". -Rom 12:2

 

 

I don't think there was very much in that article I agreed with. I'm not exactly a bleeding heart liberal but lots in those links just seemed cringe worthy. There were some outdated psychobabble theories in there which I think belong in the rubbish bin. I think life can be hard as it is for those with SSA, and their families, without an article attempting to portray that it has the answers and can give a manual of tips on parenting and other stuff. Aside from laying blame with families (which I think is often unwarranted) it adds on even more psychological baggage for those living with SSA.

[Benedictus]

Forgive me for laughing at this. 15 years of Aves here, and other mortifications besides, and still not overcome. My story is hardly unique.

 

Getting up to do cleaning or gardening whilst saying the rosary works. You'll get a very clean house! A pack of frozen ice cubes or a cold shower helps too. After a while the will becomes stronger, and it's easier to manage. Often there are situation triggers that are linked to the bahviour, often emotional. If you can address those then the urges reduce. When having daily communion it also means you'd have to see the priest for confession far more regularly. Not having to to confess each mishap to a priest also becomes positive. Do I want to tell Fr about this tomorrow before Mass?  Erm no, not really. So I won't do it. After a while the priest, if attentive, will congratulate you on things you seem to be overcoming.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Benedictus

[arfink]

Sexual attraction is a behavioral response triggered by hormonal changes produced by brain activity. It's not a magical mystical hardwired identity. (that argument, btw, is rooted in homophobia; it was first suggested by people who were anxious to insist that "they" could "never" be gay).

 

Sorry friends. Push the right buttons in the right order often enough and you can be sexually attracted to a turkey sandwhich. Its why child victims of sexual abuse are more likely to grow up to be predators themselves. Its why pornography warps relationships.

 

some things are harder to overturn than others. some things are so hard for some people  to overturn that they are in fact, impossible to overturn as a practical matter.

but the idea that sexual attraction is by nature binary, fixed or hardwired ... that friends is just dumb as a box of rocks.

 

This. I've known this to be true. Not literally in the case of turkey sandwiches, but just about. :P

[arfink]

Getting up to do cleaning or gardening whilst saying the rosary works. You'll get a very clean house! A pack of frozen ice cubes or a cold shower helps too. After a while the will becomes stronger, and it's easier to manage. Often there are situation triggers that are linked to the bahviour, often emotional. If you can address those then the urges reduce. When having daily communion it also means you'd have to see the priest for confession far more regularly. Not having to to confess each mishap to a priest also becomes positive. Do I want to tell Fr about this tomorrow before Mass?  Erm no, not really. So I won't do it. After a while the priest, if attentive, will congratulate you on things you seem to be overcoming.

 

Yes, all very good things. They don't always help.

 

I do not wish to derail this convo here, but I think it bears repeating both in light of masturbation and in light of the OP's video that there are certain kinds of sinful patterns which can become so habituated that a man's efforts can literally do nothing against them. It doesn't exempt anyone from fighting against it and carrying the cross, but much like alcoholism, it's common for people to carry this cross to their grave without any real respite other than humbly trusting in the Lord and getting back up off the floor over and over again.

[The Bus Station]

Sexual attraction is a behavioral response triggered by hormonal changes produced by brain activity. It's not a magical mystical hardwired identity. (that argument, btw, is rooted in homophobia; it was first suggested by people who were anxious to insist that "they" could "never" be gay).

 

Sorry friends. Push the right buttons in the right order often enough and you can be sexually attracted to a turkey sandwhich. Its why child victims of sexual abuse are more likely to grow up to be predators themselves. Its why pornography warps relationships.

 

some things are harder to overturn than others. some things are so hard for some people  to overturn that they are in fact, impossible to overturn as a practical matter.

but the idea that sexual attraction is by nature binary, fixed or hardwired ... that friends is just dumb as a box of rocks.

 

It depends on how deeply rooted the homosexual attraction is.  I'm assuming you are straight.  Do you think it is entirely reasonable that you, as an adult, could become exclusively homosexual, if, as you say, the "right buttons" were pushed?

 

Edit: I intend no snark and took no offense to your post - honest question :)

Edited April 30, 2014 by The Bus Station

[arfink]

It depends on how deeply rooted the homosexual attraction is.  I'm assuming you are straight.  Do you think it is entirely reasonable that you, as an adult, could become exclusively homosexual, if, as you say, the "right buttons" were pushed?

 

Edit: I intend no snark and took no offense to your post - honest question :)

 

I think that this is less likely to happen in adults, who are already past most of the emotional/mental developmental stages that happen earlier in life.

[Fidei Defensor]

No matter how many "buttons you push," I will never be attracted to women in a sexual manner. I don't lust over women. The same can't be said about men. And that is my cross to bear. May the Lord help me to carry it!

[The Bus Station]

I think that this is less likely to happen in adults, who are already past most of the emotional/mental developmental stages that happen earlier in life.

 

That's exactly what I'm trying to suggest.  Lillabett seemed to me to be suggesting that adults with SSA can become heterosexual.  I think this is highly unlikely, almost impossible. The same would be true of an adult heterosexual becoming homosexual.

[arfink]

That's exactly what I'm trying to suggest.  Lillabett seemed to me to be suggesting that adults with SSA can become heterosexual.  I think this is highly unlikely, almost impossible. The same would be true of an adult heterosexual becoming homosexual.

 

Considering the common definitions of homosexual being used these days, I would tend to agree.

 

That said, I have known from personal experience that even in adults, it is possible to be sexually aroused/gratified by a wide variety of new experiences, and that hetero/homo/other acts which are unfamiliar can be chosen and learned to be enjoyed. That this is so is pretty well supported by common sense, I think.

[The Bus Station]

Well, sure.  But I'm specifically talking about a complete 180.  Though the feeling is alien to me, I can imagine becoming sexually attracted to a woman, sure.  I don't think I'll ever not be attracted to men, though.  And I think this is true for most adults with SSA.  That's all I'm saying.

 

edited for grahmmar

Edited April 30, 2014 by The Bus Station

[AugustineA]

Conversations gettin weird. Duckin out. :P I hope you guys come to many fruitful conclusions.