ithinkjesusiscool Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Pax! What can you say about the Liturgies of Pope John Paul II, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and Pope Francis? and does Pope Francis celebrate great Liturgies (or is it just that he's good at meeting people)? Or is Benedict the only one of these three who know how to celebrate great Liturgies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Their writings as well as their actions do indicate that Pope Benedict has/had a greater focus on the liturgy. It is his area of expertise more than Pope John Paul's or Pope Francis'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ithinkjesusiscool Posted April 25, 2014 Author Share Posted April 25, 2014 People praise pope Francis but do they praise his way of celebrating Liturgies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 People praise pope Francis but do they praise his way of celebrating Liturgies? Not that I have heard, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Even the ugliest liturgy, so long as it follows the rubrics, still brings us Jesus. We should always remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ithinkjesusiscool Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 The ugliest Liturgy? Are you arguing that Mass should be said as long as it is valid. Wouldn't a black Mass be valid? What exactly did you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 The ugliest Liturgy? Are you arguing that Mass should be said as long as it is valid. Wouldn't a black Mass be valid? What exactly did you mean? I mean aesthetically ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Even the ugliest liturgy, so long as it follows the rubrics, still brings us Jesus. We should always remember that. Are flagrantly ugly liturgies, even when those involved had every opportunity to make things more beautiful, more in line with the mind of the Church, and more faithful to the rubrics, as pleasing to God as beautiful, edifying liturgies, in which the sacred ministers have respect for and devotion to the texts and celebration of the Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximillion Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 (edited) Since I have no way of knowing the mind of God then there is no way of knowing. It is a human trait to look for the aesthetically pleasing. Maybe that does not apply to God. What IS pleasing to God has to be a form of liturgy where He is honoured, which helps people discover His truth, and which assists in His revelation of Himself to the participants. Does that mean it has to be aesthetically pleasing in our eyes.......moot point, IMO, since I know God can turn anything into an opportunity to save souls, even an 'ugly' liturgy. Edited April 26, 2014 by maximillion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 I clarified enough that I think there is a clear answer. In any case, flouting the rubrics of the liturgy is mortally sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Are flagrantly ugly liturgies, even when those involved had every opportunity to make things more beautiful, more in line with the mind of the Church, and more faithful to the rubrics, as pleasing to God as beautiful, edifying liturgies, in which the sacred ministers have respect for and devotion to the texts and celebration of the Mass? No. I'm just pointing out that for those faithful who don't have access to beautiful liturgies, that Jesus still becomes present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 No. I'm just pointing out that for those faithful who don't have access to beautiful liturgies, that Jesus still becomes present. But from a general perspective, it is incorrect to assume that such a Liturgy is "just as good", right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AugustineA Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 God likes beautiful or aesthetically pleasing things.. Old Testament descriptions of the temple, the vestments, the Song of Songs. Mary bought expensive perfume for Jesus' feet and she was affirmed. Judas said the money was better put elsewhere, and he was rebuked. Yes, Jesus is present at the Mass. Yes, that also means we should make it beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 But from a general perspective, it is incorrect to assume that such a Liturgy is "just as good", right? It depends on how you're defining "just as good." If the only measure is whether or not Jesus is present, then yes, it's "just as good." However, a both valid and licit liturgy is always to be preferred to an illicit one, or God forbid, an invalid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 It depends on how you're defining "just as good." If the only measure is whether or not Jesus is present, then yes, it's "just as good." However, a both valid and licit liturgy is always to be preferred to an illicit one, or God forbid, an invalid one. That is my entire point though. Validity is an insultingly low hurdle. Liturgical minimalism does not do us good as a Church. We should not consider the Liturgy as being done 'good enough' simply because it was valid and the priest did not preach heresy. That view does not respect the Church's liturgical heritage, or the liturgy's venerated position in the Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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