Headcovering Debates

[TotusTuusMaria]

Well said, BM. 

 

Another interesting thread I ran across. Aloysius makes mention of a reason for the headcovering similar to Augustine and women being a reminder of the world/society...

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/63947-women-veils-and-other-things/

 

"Whereas woman is created into a society. The woman is the glue of the society, the one that keeps things together. Her head unveiled, the glory of man, will distract man and pull them back down. For that is what woman does to man: pulls them back down from having their head in the clouds as if no one else in the world exists and brings them into social being. The sign that she exhibits by veiling her head is: at this moment, we are not interacting with each other as a society. I am focused at God with you; and you should remain focused on God. In this one instance, I will not bother your single mindedness with my concern for socialization and society. A woman will interrupt a football game to try to socialize, but she veils her head to give the sign that there is no socialization to be had in mass.

Adam was not a social being until Eve came.

The phrase 'the glory of man' can be seen quite well in the romances throughout history, as a man goes into endless description of the woman's beauty and grace and nearly angelic purity. This glory of man, this greatness in woman which draws man away from his selfishness, is something good and holy which ought to be veiled in the presence of that which man is supposed to give His undivided attention to." - Aloysius

[Ash Wednesday]

[Basilisa Marie]

Yeah I usually don't like any of the "wow women are just so perfect they remind men of heaven!" stuff. So much of it is focused on how the whole point of women existing is to make men better. Which, while exists as one possible interpretation of the first creation story of Genesis, falls apart once you leave Genesis 1.  Men treating women like they're superhuman is really no better than treating them like they're subhuman. A problem I have with the argument you posted is that it put so much of the focus on how women veiling serves the interests of men. And surprising though it may be, women don't chiefly exist to serve the interests of men.  :hehe2:

[TotusTuusMaria]

Yeah I usually don't like any of the "wow women are just so perfect they remind men of heaven!" stuff. So much of it is focused on how the whole point of women existing is to make men better. Which, while exists as one possible interpretation of the first creation story of Genesis, falls apart once you leave Genesis 1.  Men treating women like they're superhuman is really no better than treating them like they're subhuman. A problem I have with the argument you posted is that it put so much of the focus on how women veiling serves the interests of men. And surprising though it may be, women don't chiefly exist to serve the interests of men.  :hehe2:

 

Valid points and opinions. 

 

Personally, (and obviously :hehe: ) I like the points made by Hildebrand and Aloysius just as much as I like the more classical interpretations for the "why" behind the headcovering. I think the dignity of the woman can sometimes be lost in simply the classical interpretations just as, for sure, in the more modern interpretations there can be an air of superiority or as if the vocation of woman is solely for the sake of man. When understood in the context of the authors though, I am sure neither the Church fathers nor the modern philosophers and exegists had an improper understanding of woman or meant to wrongly emphasize either her great dignity and beauty or the reason in proper worship, justice, obedience, and submission. Both are beautiful ways to look at the headcovering which I find valid.

 

We were all made for worship; life-giving, self-giving love, and we have the task of evangelization first and foremost. 

 

I do believe too women have a special ability to inspire men (and thus, civilization) to greatness, and I think that is beautiful and so important to acknowledge in evangelization. The more women can be reminded of this, I say, the better. It is by no means the only reason for existence nor even their very primary, but it is a great gift God has given them that needs to be properly exercised. Vatican II entrusted the intended Pentecost of the Council to women in a special manner, realizing (I believe) the gifts they have of inspiration for man and society.

 

Given all that, the reality is that by actualizing their own dignity in the wearing of the headcovering they give justice to God by following divine revelation, contribute to their own good (they have actualized their dignity by practicing virtue), and give witness to both men and women (the primary means of evangelization). I apologize if I have made it seem as if they lived for the sake of men alone. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by TotusTuusMaria

[Lil Red]

Yeah I usually don't like any of the "wow women are just so perfect they remind men of heaven!" stuff. So much of it is focused on how the whole point of women existing is to make men better. Which, while exists as one possible interpretation of the first creation story of Genesis, falls apart once you leave Genesis 1.  Men treating women like they're superhuman is really no better than treating them like they're subhuman. A problem I have with the argument you posted is that it put so much of the focus on how women veiling serves the interests of men. And surprising though it may be, women don't chiefly exist to serve the interests of men.  :hehe2:

 

I luff you.  :cheers:

[Basilisa Marie]

Valid points and opinions. 

 

Personally, (and obviously :hehe: ) I like the points made by Hildebrand and Aloysius just as much as I like the more classical interpretations for the "why" behind the headcovering. I think the dignity of the woman can sometimes be lost in simply the classical interpretations just as, for sure, in the more modern interpretations there can be an air of superiority or as if the vocation of woman is solely for the sake of man. When understood in the context of the authors though, I am sure neither the Church fathers nor the modern philosophers and exegists had an improper understanding of woman or meant to wrongly emphasize either her great dignity and beauty or the reason in proper worship, justice, obedience, and submission. Both are beautiful ways to look at the headcovering which I find valid.

 

 

Eh, some of them had questionable opinions about the role of women in the world. But they aren't perfect - even Aquinas didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception (it hadn't been officially declared yet, of course, but still). And I don't think anyone who lives today is flawless in that respect, either. :)

 

 

 

We were all made for worship; life-giving, self-giving love, and we have the task of evangelization first and foremost. 

YES!  :bounce:

 

 

I do believe too women have a special ability to inspire men (and thus, civilization) to greatness, and I think that is beautiful and so important to acknowledge in evangelization. The more women can be reminded of this, I say, the better. It is by no means the only reason for existence nor even their very primary, but it is a great gift God has given them that needs to be properly exercised. Vatican II entrusted the intended Pentecost of the Council to women in a special manner, realizing (I believe) the gifts they have of inspiration for man and society.

 

Given all that, the reality is that by actualizing their own dignity in the wearing of the headcovering they give justice to God by following divine revelation, contribute to their own good (they have actualized their dignity by practicing virtue), and give witness to both men and women (the primary means of evangelization). I apologize if I have made it seem as if they lived for the sake of men alone. 

 

I've never heard the sentence I bolded before. What do you mean by it? 

No need to apologize! You wouldn't even have to apologize to me if you DID think women were only created to serve men. Forums are for opinions, after all. )  

I think people have the ability to inspire each other to greatness. Do women have a unique way of inspiring men? Maybe, but I'm more inclined to believe that we've just romanticized it. Men have been talking about being inspired by women for thousands of years, so there's probably something to it. But part of that something, I believe, is viewing favor of a woman as a goal to be achieved. Often this takes the form of viewing women as a prize to be won, and thus an object to obtain.  But I don't think this is always the case. There's an undeniable goodness that sometimes does come from such a quest for a woman's affections. This is one reason why I like LOTR - Aragorn goes on his kingship quest thing not really to win Arwen's favor, but to become worthy of her. 

But all this implies that women are "already there" - that they're already worthy, virtuous, pure creatures. It completely ignores how women need to grow in virtue just as much as men do, which is why I have a problem with the whole "women inspire men" line of argument.  It's not that I think it's inherently wrong or bad, it's that I think it's overused and has been emphasized as more or less the sole reason for why women do stuff, and so paints a lopsided picture of reality.  

However, covering your head with a veil is not part of divine revelation. It's a practice and a discipline, but not divine revelation. How is veiling practicing a virtue? Does it inspire interior humility? Is it just virtuous because it keeps your beautiful hair from distracting boys? Is it virtuous because you distract boys from what the priest is doing at mass with your beautiful holiness? How, exactly, does it actualize dignity through virtue? I totally see how it's a witness, that part is obvious to me. 

[the171]

I dig the head coverings and modest dress. It's the sort of outward sign of modesty that usually requires actual modesty to do. And girls look (wayyy) cuter wearing those mantillas.. boom, debate won. I feel kinda casual in plaid, so I have to step it up a notch.. 

 

even if i did veil, it wouldn't be for men.

 

[PhuturePriest]

even if i did veil, it wouldn't be for men.

 

 

Veils are to keep men from lusting after your hair. It's as if you haven't even been reading everyone's posts.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

A problem I have with the argument you posted is that it put so much of the focus on how women veiling serves the interests of men. And surprising though it may be, women don't chiefly exist to serve the interests of men.  :hehe2:

 

 

Then whose interests do they serve? :huh:

[TotusTuusMaria]

I've never heard the sentence I bolded before. What do you mean by it?

 

"And now it is to you that we address ourselves, women of all states -- girls, wives, mothers and widows, to you also, consecrated virgins and women living alone -- you constitute half of the immense human family. As you know, the Church is proud to have glorified and liberated woman, and in the course of the centuries, in diversity of characters, to have brought into relief her basic equality with man. But the hour is coming, in fact has come, when the vocation of woman is being achieved in its fullness, the hour in which woman acquires in the world an influence, an effect and a power never hitherto achieved. That is why, at this moment when the human race is under-going so deep a transformation, women impregnated with the spirit of the Gospel can do so much to aid mankind in not falling." - Paul VI, closing the Council (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6closin.htm)

 

What I mean is that Vatican II was not a doctrinal Council - it was intended to be a "new Pentecost;" a Council which sparked a renewed acceleration of evangelization. With that knowledge, upon reading the concluding remarks of the Holy Father, I see the Spirit imparting to women a special mission to use their gifts and genius to fulfill the mission of the Council, including making use of their great gift of influence in this mission. They are to inspire, to witness, and to proclaim to all of civilization Christ's intention for a personal, covenantal relationship, and I am sure there is much more there that the Spirit intends to work with them. 

 

In those same remarks Paul VI instructed us to "Reconcile men with life and above all, we beseech you, watch carefully over the future of our race. Hold back the hand of man who, in a moment of folly, might attempt to destroy human civilization."

 

"Lastly, women in trial, who stand upright at the foot of the cross like Mary, you who so often in history have given to men the strength to battle unto the very end and to give witness to the point of martyrdom, aid them now still once more to retain courage in their great undertakings, while at the same time maintaining patience and an esteem for humble beginnings." - Paul VI

 

That sounds like a call to inspire men to me. He reflects on their ability to inspire men into battle. I think of Mary who was an inspiration to Christ, the Apostles, and to countless men and women through the ages. I think of the Macabbean mother who inspires her son to martyrdrom. I think of St. Maura who consoles her husband St. Timothy as they carry their crosses together and are eventually crucified across from one another, and I reflect on how he scolds her when she fails in her vocation as His wife in this regard before having her conversion. He says she is a Christian woman - how could she tell him to worship anything or anyone else but the one, true God? 

 

"Women, you do know how to make truth sweet, tender and accessible, make it your task to bring the spirit of this council into institutions, schools, homes and daily life. Women of the entire universe, whether Christian or non-believing, you to whom life is entrusted at this grave moment in history, it is for you to save the peace of the world." - Paul VI

 

Beautiful. It is for women to save the peace of the world, and from the beginning of the call he makes he mentions a great means in accomplishing this goal: the gift of influence. 

 

I think people have the ability to inspire each other to greatness. Do women have a unique way of inspiring men? Maybe, but I'm more inclined to believe that we've just romanticized it.

 

Well, I think it is a great reality, and I rejoice in it. Perhaps some might romanticize it, but I have never been in a romantic relationship and have sought to use this gift with my fathers and brothers and male friends to encourage them to be heroic men of God who strive after His heart. And, yes - I see the Lord working through it. By my interest, my positive encouragement, and most of all by actualizing my dignity as a human being and a woman (by seeking to live virtuously) they change their attitude, their demeanor, their actions, their words, and they seek to become virtuous themselves. 

 

 

Men have been talking about being inspired by women for thousands of years, so there's probably something to it. But part of that something, I believe, is viewing favor of a woman as a goal to be achieved. Often this takes the form of viewing women as a prize to be won, and thus an object to obtain.  But I don't think this is always the case. There's an undeniable goodness that sometimes does come from such a quest for a woman's affections. This is one reason why I like LOTR - Aragorn goes on his kingship quest thing not really to win Arwen's favor, but to become worthy of her.

 

Right. Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, "To a great extent the level of any civilization is the level of its womanhood. When a man loves a woman, he has to become worthy of her. The higher her virtue, the more her character, the more devoted she is to truth, justice, goodness, the more a man has to aspire to be worthy of her. The history of civilization could actually be written in terms of the level of its women." 

 

But all this implies that women are "already there" - that they're already worthy, virtuous, pure creatures. It completely ignores how women need to grow in virtue just as much as men do, which is why I have a problem with the whole "women inspire men" line of argument.  It's not that I think it's inherently wrong or bad, it's that I think it's overused and has been emphasized as more or less the sole reason for why women do stuff, and so paints a lopsided picture of reality.  

 

Respectfully, I would disagree. I do not think many are of the opinion in our fallen world that there is any creature who is perfect in virtue nor do I think many would be seduced into believing anyone and especially an entire sex is perfect in virtue by saying that they have the ability to inspire. 

 

A woman can inspire a man to vice just as much as she can inspire a man virtue. By saying "women inspire men" it means... they have a gift to inspire men not that they necessarily are perfect and I doubt even the most hardened true-feminists would argue that the woman is perfect in virtue, much less your average Catholic touting that "women inspire."

 

 

However, covering your head with a veil is not part of divine revelation. It's a practice and a discipline, but not divine revelation.

 

The discipline might could be argued to be realized by nature, but I wouldn't argue that it is part of natural law. It is in divine revelation (through the inspired Word given by Paul) that the discipline is known. So, yes, I would say it is divine revelation given that I would define anything that is made known in Scripture which cannot be known by reason alone to be divinely revealed. 

 

 

How is veiling practicing a virtue? Does it inspire interior humility? Is it just virtuous because it keeps your beautiful hair from distracting boys? Is it virtuous because you distract boys from what the priest is doing at mass with your beautiful holiness? How, exactly, does it actualize dignity through virtue? I totally see how it's a witness, that part is obvious to me.

 

It can be a practice of these virtues in the following senses ... 

 

1. Justice: By wearing it one is obeying Scripture and giving God was God is due

2. Humility & obedience: By wearing it one is obeying not one's own will but the will of God (humility) as seen through the authority of Scripture, Tradition, and perhaps another authority (I knew young postulants who never wore a headcovering prior to entering but did upon because they were exercising obedience)

 

By practicing virtue (as given above) one actualizes their dignity as a human being, and one does that one transforms society. The headcovering itself does nothing, but the unhardened heart which wears it out of virtue can and does actualize their dignity as human beings and women; that is pretty powerful stuff. 

 

Additionally, it is unfortunate that it must be assumed condescendingly that just because some beautiful reasons were given as to the headcovering being an inspiration to man (and woman, for that matter) that it is the intention of myself or any other woman who wears a headcovering must be related to man as if we are romantic, vain, and self-absorbed beneath our little veils. Not that it would be beyond me (but for the grace of God, there go I), but that is not the case for many of my sisters who cover so I take slight offense in that regard. 

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by TotusTuusMaria

[TotusTuusMaria]

I would also like to add in regards to inspiring my relations and friends that I have also had the misfortune to inspire them toward vice which made them and myself less of what we are called to be.

 

The point is: it is not a romantic notion which cannot be found in nature. I would say it is an observed reality.

 

Neither my brothers nor my father and perhaps many male friends practiced virtue or vice because they sought to court me or have a romantic relationship with me. It wasn't because they were making an effort to return manipulation for manipulation. No, it was because they were seeking toward the "goodness" which I showed them to be desirable and "true," and which they have a natural inclination toward as human beings. 

 

Why are women the primary minds today in marketing and advertising? Why are the primary advertisements displaying woman? I would venture to say because they are naturally endowed with gifts of inspiration (which I know could open a whole debate of if this is the case which unfortunately I can't get into for the sake of time)

 

But, I would defer to...

JP II's Letter to Women

Alice Von Hildebrand's Privilege of Being a Woman

Edith Stein's Essays on Woman

Emily Stimpson's The Catholic Girl's Surivival Guide for the Single Years (despite its embarrassing title she has an amazing section on the feminine genius which I think would benefit any woman to read).

 

Women inspire men. We have the examples of Mary and countless wives and mothers who have influenced their husbands toward greatness and nurtured/inspired their children to it. I would say its not just a romantic idea.

 

I wouldn't discredit the need for men to have other holy men in their lives Prof. Mary Stanford of Christendom has an amesome lecture which can be found on Itunes called Friendship, Feminity, and Fickleness that touches on the need for men to be around other men in order to grow in masculinity, but she also notes the important role of inspiration women can even have in refusing to partake in these activities and how it encourages men to be greater and more virtuous men. 

 

https://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/guest-lectures/id418584170?mt=10

 

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by TotusTuusMaria

[LaPetiteSoeur]

Veils are to keep men from lusting after your hair. It's as if you haven't even been reading everyone's posts.

 

If the sight of hair causes man to lust then he needs to see somebody because he should be concentrating on the Eucharist and not on a woman in church. Good lord

[PhuturePriest]

If the sight of hair causes man to lust then he needs to see somebody because he should be concentrating on the Eucharist and not on a woman in church. Good lord

 

I take it you had difficulty reading the sarcasm in my post?

[LaPetiteSoeur]

I take it you had difficulty reading the sarcasm in my post?

 

I had just gotten up; sorry.

sadly tho i've seen too many pro-headcovering arguments from students at my uni that say I need to cover my head and not wear sundresses (but a skirt and blouse) because my hair and a sundress leads them to sin. Apparently it is my duty as a "sister of God" to be kind to my brothers and help them not to sin....by covering my hair and not wearing (modest) sundresses.

[PhuturePriest]

I had just gotten up; sorry.

sadly tho i've seen too many pro-headcovering arguments from students at my uni that say I need to cover my head and not wear sundresses (but a skirt and blouse) because my hair and a sundress leads them to sin. Apparently it is my duty as a "sister of God" to be kind to my brothers and help them not to sin....by covering my hair and not wearing (modest) sundresses.

 

Don't worry, that's perfectly understandable.

 

It is true that we have a duty to watch out for each other. However, men too often fail to remember that we also have a duty as sons of God to protect women spiritually, just as women do men. One of your jobs, however, is not to be wrapped up like a mummy. I assure you I've never fallen to lust because I saw beautiful hair.