Headcovering Debates

[TotusTuusMaria]

JMJT

 

There use to be a headcovering debate some years back (I think Alyosius and Apotheoun were part of) that was 30-50 pages or something. Is that still available?

 

 

[OnlySunshine]

TTM!!!!!  How are you?!?!

[CrossCuT]

Its good if you like it.

[Basilisa Marie]

I think it got archived? 

[TotusTuusMaria]

I am good. Thanks!

 

Does archived mean we can't see it?

 

 

[Socrates]

JMJT

 

There use to be a headcovering debate some years back (I think Alyosius and Apotheoun were part of) that was 30-50 pages or something. Is that still available?

 

Looking for Lenten penance?

[TotusTuusMaria]

Looking for Lenten penance?

 

:hehe:

 

You figured me out. :evil:

 

God will reward you if you supply me with a link?  :nun3:

Edited April 14, 2014 by TotusTuusMaria

[Anastasia13]

We can make a new debate in needed.

[Benedictus]

I think men and women should do so. It seems though, unless I'm mistaken, men didn't really do so in Christianity because it was associated with Jewish tradition. If a man enters a church with a hat or covering he's told to remove it, unless it's a biretta or monk cowl. Seems odd the option doesn't exist, if the covering is respectable.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Benedictus

[AugustineA]

I dig the head coverings and modest dress. It's the sort of outward sign of modesty that usually requires actual modesty to do. And girls look (wayyy) cuter wearing those mantillas.. boom, debate won. I feel kinda casual in plaid, so I have to step it up a notch.. 

[Benedictus]

I dig the head coverings and modest dress. It's the sort of outward sign of modesty that usually requires actual modesty to do. And girls look (wayyy) cuter wearing those mantillas.. boom, debate won. I feel kinda casual in plaid, so I have to step it up a notch.. 

 

  :lol:

[Basilisa Marie]

Augustine made an argument about the passage in Paul that talks about women needing to cover their heads but men not.  It basically comes down to Augustine's idea that femininity reflects the things of this world, and masculinity reflects things that are not of this world. Thus, he thought it was proper for women to veil because it served as a symbolic reminder for all people to focus things that are not of this world (i.e. God, the divine, etc), and improper for men to cover their heads, for the same reason. It's not that things of this world are bad, it's that they're lower goods. He argued that both men and women image God in their humanity, but masculinity and femininity image different things. Masculinity images God and Christ, while femininity images the beauty and goodness of creation. 

 

Now, whether or not any of that argument has any real theological heft is a different story. But I think it offers us an interesting take on the issue. :) 

[TotusTuusMaria]

Augustine made an argument about the passage in Paul that talks about women needing to cover their heads but men not.  It basically comes down to Augustine's idea that femininity reflects the things of this world, and masculinity reflects things that are not of this world. Thus, he thought it was proper for women to veil because it served as a symbolic reminder for all people to focus things that are not of this world (i.e. God, the divine, etc), and improper for men to cover their heads, for the same reason. It's not that things of this world are bad, it's that they're lower goods. He argued that both men and women image God in their humanity, but masculinity and femininity image different things. Masculinity images God and Christ, while femininity images the beauty and goodness of creation. 

 

Now, whether or not any of that argument has any real theological heft is a different story. But I think it offers us an interesting take on the issue. :)

That is interesting. 

 

Alice von Hildebrand says that woman reminds the world of the sacred and is sacred and that is why she has the privilege of being veiled during the holy assembly. She points out that everything in the Old Testament that was touched by God was veiled. We even make use of the veil today during the Mass to cover the sacred. 

 

God touches the body of the woman by placing within her a soul, in His image and likeness: "...there is a direct contact between God and the woman, (the husband is totally out of the picture), and once again, this divine touch gives her body a special dignity—a nobility which indicates that she is granted a special calling to respect this mysterious sphere."

 

"And this is why the female body should be veiled because everything which is sacred calls for veiling. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, he veiled his face. Why did he veil his face? Because he had spoken to God and at that very moment there was a sacredness that that called for veiling. Now... feminists after VII suddenly 'discovered' that when women go to Church veiled, it is a sign of their inferiority. The man takes off his hat and the woman puts on a veil. My goodness, how they have lost the sense of the supernatural. Veiling indicates sacredness and it is a special privilege of the woman that she enters church veiled."

 

 

"The symbolism of the veil is obvious: it always refers to something marked by sacredness. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai after having spoken with God, he covered his face. When Christ is present in the tabernacle, the latter is covered by a veil. The veil symbolizes sacredness. The fact that the woman's intimate organs are veiled gives us a clear message: they belong to God in a special way. Knowing from all eternity that his son was to be incarnated in the womb of a virgin, it was 'proper and just' that the latter should have an exterior sign of its sacredness. The hymen does not serve a practical purpose. But it has a deep symbolic meaning. All women, having the privilege of sharing the sex of the Queen of Heaven, partake of this same privilege. In his treatise on virginity, St. Augustine remarks that even when a little girl is the product of sin, be it incest, rape or adultery, she partakes of the same privilege."

[TotusTuusMaria]

I don't want another debate; I just wanted to read the old one because I think Aloysius had given a really compelling argument for scriptural discipline that I had never heard before and I remember both sides using the Church fathers and I was interested in reading over it again. 

 

I think I might have found the link, but still reading through the posts. Haven't found what I was looking for yet, but I did find this in case anyone wanted to read it as well...http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/71958-q-on-women-veiling/?hl=veiling

[Basilisa Marie]

Yeah, there's a lot that can be said on both sides of the issue.  

 

One thing that should be mentioned is that the symbolism of veiling is lost on the vast majority of people nowadays. People might say the meaning is obvious, but frankly it's not for the vast majority of Catholics today. Which could be interpreted as a need for better instruction, a statement about how veiling is more of a cultural thing, or how women who veil are giving an opportunity to joyfully witness to a good practice.  

 

If people want to bring veiling back into popular practice, they need to put their arguments from authority back on the shelf and instead talk about awesome theological reasons for it, and let the statements be made mostly by women who are happy about wearing their veils and how much good it brings to their spiritual lives. That's the only thing that's going to work. 

Edited April 15, 2014 by Basilisa Marie