Discerning Franciscan Sisters Of The Immaculate

[Mary Catherine]

The pope has every right not to give permission for a new community. In fact, most people who hope to found new communities don't succeed in their endeavour - few even get to the advanced stage in the proceedings where they seek papal recognition. Just because the pope did not agree that a new community was needed does not mean that he 'ignored' the friars.

 

You yourself brought up the political issues with this congregation by accusing the Holy See of 'persecuting' and now 'ignoring' the FFI, which are very serious charges to make. I can only echo what others have said here: when you grow very attached to a community, it is easy to imagine that you know them well and you understand all the ins and outs of what's been going on. You don't. No matter how much you like and admire them, you don't have that insider knowledge. If you are going to pursue a vocation with the FFI, I would avoid leaping to judgment about either the Holy Father or the FFIs - just assume the best intentions on the part of each. It costs you nothing, and it is a far better way to begin the religious life than to publicly accuse the pope of persecuting people.

 

Beatitude, it's a regret to see a Catholic comment like this.

 

I being OP of this thread, have said the "war" is over, however you are so aggressive and militant to start it over again.

 

I think your anger originates from a wrong understanding of Papal infallibility, which is prevalent in the church after Vantican II, i.e., the pope is perfect, and whatever he says or dose is perfectly right and justified. However, the pope is just a human being, he can make mistakes. Infallibility dose not touch every word and action on his person.

 

Well, it happened many times that a community was persecuted by the Pope, even for many years. Even Jesuit, who is the defender of the Pope was suppressed by the pope for many years. And take a late example, SSPX.

 

Hence, it's ridiculous to say, the pope can't be accused of "persecuting" or "ignoring".This is not what I said, I am definitely not the inventor of those words applied to this event. I will give you the links afterwards.

 

In a nutshell, please do your homework before you post anything on this Catholic forum.
 

[ChristinaTherese]

Mary Catherine, I think that all beatitude was doing was urging caution. And caution is a good thing. We should be slow to accuse people of things without full knowledge of the facts, and we should respect the privacy of the FFI and their decision not to give out full information of what is going on internally. We should also respect that they do not use the word "persecution" to refer to what is currently going on within the order.

 

Also, you never even responded to the posts cautioning against the use of the word. You ignored us. So she was not out of line in pointing out that you brought up the discussion, especially when it wasn't really continuing much if at all.

 

So, no, beatitude and the others of us who have posted words of caution are not angry at you. Rather, we want to urge you to be careful with your words so as to not cause unnecessary scandal. The FFI have not stated that they are being persecuted, and neither should we. There is gossip on the internet that they are, but we should try to look at the sources from the order itself before we continue to spread false reports.

[Mary Catherine]

Mary Catherine, I think that all beatitude was doing was urging caution. And caution is a good thing. We should be slow to accuse people of things without full knowledge of the facts, and we should respect the privacy of the FFI and their decision not to give out full information of what is going on internally. We should also respect that they do not use the word "persecution" to refer to what is currently going on within the order.

 

Also, you never even responded to the posts cautioning against the use of the word. You ignored us. So she was not out of line in pointing out that you brought up the discussion, especially when it wasn't really continuing much if at all.

 

So, no, beatitude and the others of us who have posted words of caution are not angry at you. Rather, we want to urge you to be careful with your words so as to not cause unnecessary scandal. The FFI have not stated that they are being persecuted, and neither should we. There is gossip on the internet that they are, but we should try to look at the sources from the order itself before we continue to spread false reports.

 

Don't try to pretend everything here is docile. I dislike this kind of diguise. Truly, I don't think her comment is just a "caution" instead of rebukes or gunfires.

 

Truly, I didn't say anything exaggerating. Of course, the news reports are from the internet. Then how about you? Hearing the news of FFI at the threshold of their houses?

 

I'm surprised to see the whole world has known it, except people on phatmass.

 

No more word to give, for I am really disappointed with this Catholic forum. Bye.

[An Historian]

And take a late example, SSPX.

 

I understand where you are coming from.  I even agree, I believe that the Franciscans have been unfairly and irrationally persecuted by men in the Church, and in my personal view the pope is culpable for it as it's been going on under his nose and with his permission.  But as you also rightly pointed out, this is not a unique situation, and any religious congregations have faced such trials.  In the end, if the community is of God's will, then they will be vindicated, we can trust in that.  Though I honestly can't for the life of me imagine why on earth they'd put a Franciscan administrator over an autonomous Franciscan congregation.  They should have taken someone for another tradition, like when the Dominicans were put in charge of the Discalced Carmelites during the early days of the Carmelite Reform and their ecclesiastical troubles.

 

But the SSPX is another case.  There is a line, here.  The FFI are facing unjust sanctions because they've not done anything wrong.  Well, unless you count liturgical reverence and theological orthodoxy as being wrong, which certain quarters in the Vatican most certainly do.  But the SSPX are an entirely different beast, and associating yourself with them is ultimately dangerous for your soul because they are on a one way track to a very, very bad place.

[maximillion]

The thing is Mary Catherine - if you are still around, that you may not have seen many of us post on the troubles of the FFI even though we knew about it.

 

In fact I was aware of there being difficulties long before anyone mentioned these on phatmass. It is NOT that we are poorly informed, we simply bide our time, knowing, as many have pointed out, that lots of new communities go through a period of upheaval (for whatever reason).

 

I also object to the use of the word 'persecute/d'.

It is for those who belong to the FFI to say if they feel persecution, not for those of us at some distance to read something - even if it is good source, then put our own interpretation on it.

 

It is not our place to debate this. Well, I guess you could if you put something on Debate Table, but this sort of debate is not permitted on VS......perhaps you were unaware of that?

 

Our aim on VS is for it to be a friendly and welcoming place for anyone interested in RL.

It is not a place to debate the merits or otherwise of the Holy Father, the Holy See or any other liturgical body.

There is a place for that on phatmass...it isn't here.

[PhuturePriest]

No more word to give, for I am really disappointed with this Catholic forum. Not everyone agrees with me, so I'm leaving. Bye.

 

Fixed it for you.

[Freudentaumel]

Some people here are really in denial about what is happening. 

You do not need to be a conspiracy theorist, it is enough to look at the publicly available facts.

 

The document that rescinded Summorum Pontificum for the Franciscans was signed by a Cardinal. Summorum Pontificum was signed by Pope Benedict. A Cardinal overriding the decision of a pope, now that is truly extraordinary.

 

The document granted them the possibility of petitioning for the extraordinary form. Two monasteries in a diocese in Italy did so, with the support of the bishop of that diocese, who liked them. The result was that both monasteries were immediately closed by the apostolic commissioner, and the friars scattered around the world.

 

Fr. Volpi (the commissioner) publicly accused some relatives of Fr. Manelli of embezzlement. The relatives threatened to sue him for defamation, and he was forced to renounce his claims. The whole story can be read on the Italian homepage of the Franciscans, as it was part of the settlement that it be publicized there. It does not shine a very good light on Fr. Volpi.

 

Some people here seem to think that Rome can do no wrong, many seem to take offense at the word persecution. Does anyone remember what happened to Padre Pio?

Here is what Pope Francis had to say about a similar incident:

[i]Many thinkers in the Church were persecuted, as well. I think of one, now, at this moment, not so far from us: a man of good will, a prophet indeed, who, in his writings reproached the Church for having lost the way of the Lord. He was summoned in short order, his books were placed on the index, they took away his teaching positions – and thus, this man’s life ended – and it was not so long ago. Time has passed, and today he is Blessed. How is it, though, that he, who yesterday was a heretic, is today a Blessed of the Church? It is because yesterday, those who had power wanted to silence him because they did not like what he was saying. Today the Church, who, thanks be to God knows repent, says, ‘No, this man is good!’. Moreover, he is on the way to sainthood: He is a Blessed.[/i]

[Yaatee]

The following article seemed to be a relatively objective assessment of the situation.

 

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2788/hype_and_hope_for_the_ffi.aspx

 

(I suggest ignoring the many comments which follow the article.)

 

There is little actually known about the problems with tie institute, and probably won't be make public for some time, if ever.  Based on what is discussed in the link,  I would tend to take the side of the Vatican on this issue.

[Freudentaumel]

The following article seemed to be a relatively objective assessment of the situation.

 

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2788/hype_and_hope_for_the_ffi.aspx

 

(I suggest ignoring the many comments which follow the article.)

 

There is little actually known about the problems with tie institute, and probably won't be make public for some time, if ever.  Based on what is discussed in the link,  I would tend to take the side of the Vatican on this issue.

 

How can an article be an "objective" that explicitly begins by stating that it will only take into account material presented by one side?

The article is relatively old and repeats the accusations of financial irregularities that Fr. Volpi was in the meantime forced to withdraw and apologize for (unfortunately only after being put under legal pressure). 

It also repeats accusations that Fr. Manelli imposed the Latin Mass, which everybody knows is absurd. The introduction of the Latin Mass was decided by the general chapter, according to the norms of Summorum Pontificum, and nobody was forced to say the Latin Mass. The only one who is forcing a form of the Mass unto anyone is Fr. Volpi.

[brandelynmarie]

"Sweet is the hand of the Church, even when She strikes, for it is the hand of the Mother." St. Padre Pio :saint:

[cmaD2006]

Locking this thread until the mods have a chance to act. 

 

[BG45]

So after discussing out of sight, the thread is staying locked and that's for a few reasons:

1) Gossip.

2) There are 10 Reports right now, 5 of them are about this thread.  All 10 relate to the uncharitable behavior in Vocation Station.

3) Concerns about treating this as previous similar threads have been treated.