A New, Old-fashioned Take On Discernment

[Nunsuch]

But a vocation is not one-sided.  A vocation also requires confirmation by the congregation or diocese that must accept someone.  To assume that everyone not categorically called to the single (lay) or married state ought to automatically "try" a vocation to priesthood or religious life ignores not only the fact that God builds on natural desire but also that discernment goes both ways, as well--it is not only done on the part of the candidate, but also on the part of those missioned to examine and determine the fitness of candidates. 

[Lilllabettt]

Maggie, I certainly have an ear for your concerns. But one thing that we really have to ask is if anybody who has gone through a novitiate and then elected not to continue and to return to the secular world is spiritually any the worse for it. Yes, many will return to the secular world, with most likely to marry. However, I'd think they'd be much more of a leaven in the world due to their time in religious formation.

 

 

 

Formation can absolutely imperil the souls of men and women who are not prepared for it.

 

I agree with you about marriage being something to be discerned rather than presumed. As someone who has never been particularly "whizz!bang!" about getting married the prevailing idea that marriage is the basic vocation that everybody naturally has annoys me to say the least. 

[freedomreigns]

Yep. It sure happened to me. I very nearly lost my faith over the whole thing, and the growth I have had spiritually of late has happened after many years of bitterness and the reversal of a strong spiritual hardening which happened to me during my days after leaving seminary

 

 

 

I second this... I struggled with my faith big time after leaving the convent.  I am most grateful to God for my faith, and for my faith having survived this, which for me (and not uncommonly for others) was a great trial.  

 

It is not always so easy.  There is a greater commitment in entering the postulancy and especially the novitiate than just "Oh, I think I'll try this out for a while."

 

Also, maybe this is not actually being said, but it might be a thought there in the background---spiritual ambition is never a good reason to choose a vocation.  Actually in a way none of us should be "choosing" a vocation so much as responding to one.  God does the calling.  To just circumvent the process of discerning how the Lord is speaking in prayer and in the circumstances of life and in spiritual direction--all in order to just "choose the objectively higher" state in life--misses the entire point of a loving response to the call of God.  His ways are not our ways and human reason alone does not succeed in knowing the mind and heart of God.  Ignatian discernment is not the only way to discern, and is not the best way for me personally as I have learned from spiritual direction, but it is often a very good way to learn how the Lord is calling one in life.  

 

I can not over-emphasize the importance of good spiritual direction in discernment. 

 

Also, a minor point-- clothing is not the start of official religious life.  Consecration is.  Until vows one is technically still a lay person.  Clothing is the start of novitiate.  Novitiate is by design an intense time of discernment and formation, and not for the weak of heart to be sure. 

[chrysostom]

Also, maybe this is not actually being said, but it might be a thought there in the background---spiritual ambition is never a good reason to choose a vocation. 

 

I'd appreciate if you could elaborate on what you mean by spiritual ambition.  Thanks!

[freedomreigns]

I'd appreciate if you could elaborate on what you mean by spiritual ambition.  Thanks!

 

Doing objectively good things but for subjectively self-serving reasons.  Ambition can be a problem due to our fallen human nature in a worldly sense, and this vice can sometimes also be translated to our spiritual lives.  For instance, in the convent, wanting to be "the best" sister, or even just entering the religious life to be "higher" than others.  We can see this problem way back in the gospels when the disciples would get in disputes about "who would be greatest in the Kingdom."  The Lord was not fond of this attitude.

 

Our life needs to become more and more about the Glory of God and not our own "glory."  Ultimately no matter what we do, if it is not motivated out of love, it will be barren, even if on the "outside" it looks extraordinary.  God sees the heart and it is in loving and serving Him that we grow into the holiness that He has destined us for: "The good works prepared in advance" for us by the Father.  (Eph 2)

 

I do not think a lot of people enter seminary or religious life for consciously self-serving reasons, and if they do I do not think they will be happy.  I do, however, think that if most of us are honest with ourselves we can see that our motivations in our spiritual lives need to be purified by the grace of God, and this often takes the experience of humiliations allowed by God for our greater conversion.  I have certainly experienced this myself!  "Before I was afflicted I went astray....It is good that You humbled me that I might learn Your commands."  (Psalm 119)

 

 

 As it says in the Litany of Humility: "May others become more holy than I, provided I become as holy as I should."  We are running a race, to be sure, but we are not in competition with each other for the "highest" spot.  

[SNJM]

Dear Bardegaulois,

 

I have read your initial post a few times through, as I am also in the position of guiding/serving those who strive to form a closer relationship with Our Lord.

 

You raise a very interesting point, which in fact, some of the more "traditional" (not to separate or cause issue in using this word, but as a means of identification) congregations, communities, orders, etc., live by. The one that comes most instantly to mind (to my mind) are the Cistercians of the Ancient Observance. In one of my own conversations with the Vocation Directress, she very clearly outlined what your initial post said and didn't seem to have much interest in whether or not someone was "called" to the life, but rather, to choose the life, being of sound mind and body, knowing that it was the most pleasing way to reach sainthood and holiness. 

 

While your points are very well taken and are found in countless books regarding religious life pre-Vatican II, I have not found this to be the norm today. I have also had some very holy people whom have not felt drawn to marriage or religious life, but in fact, the single life and worked very hard in creating a means of reaching holiness most suitable for their life.

 

Personally, I have found the greatest stumbling block is the lack of support in the home. All of our greatest saints give great credit to their parents. I am still very surprised when I hear about the lack of devotion in the home; missing Mass perhaps the gravest of all. How can a vocation (forget about joining a community) to holiness be fostered in homes that are more interested in everything but pleasing God? 

 

I am interested in how your thoughts are received. We are all called to holiness; to know, love and serve Christ. To do so in religious life naturally makes the most sense as it would be "the easiest" in that one would be surrounded by great teachers, wonderful companions and excellent practices. However, as has been mentioned above, religious life does compliment the individual soul and the community at large. One cannot force themselves upon an order and the other way around. Discernment is necessary in that an individual must dive deep into the depths of their soul to discover what best fits their personality and individual gifts; which have all been given to us by God Himself.

 

Rose

[SilentJoy]

  Novitiate is by design an intense time of discernment and formation, and not for the weak of heart to be sure. 

If it wouldn't derail the thread too much, could someone elaborate on the weakness of heart problem? If I am prone to feeling discouraged and anxious in discernment, is that a sign of a weak heart that might not survive the novitiate anyway?

[Lilllabettt]

So ... when you are in formation, you will be forced to  face yourself.

This is a sign that formation is working.

Your faults and weaknesses have to be surfaced so that they can be addressed.

1. The process of surfacing yourself 2. The process of facing yourself 3. The process of addressing what needs addressing in yourself ...

These 3 processes can be painful- even brutal. Even if you are a saint, being formed by holy men or women in a well functioning community.

God's grace is with you all the way. But its important to have capacities going into it, and to realize what you're embarking on.

 

 

[bardegaulois]

Now that whatever that was is over...

 

Chrysostom, your clear love for Our Lady and your statement that "[w]hat I really want... is closeness to the Eucharistic Jesus." together with your admission that you are "entranced about the possibility of religious life," lead me to suspect very strongly that you ought not merely to investigate the religious life, but more specifically the religious priesthood. I'm sure that this has crossed your mind.

Nunsuch, you raise an excellent point as well: the final determination of one's vocation is the acceptance of it by another, whether an institute, bishop, or spouse. One cannot do anything religiously only because one wants to; such a change in state of life, like any pious word or action, can only happen through divine grace. Here we go back to that necessity of the other: in this case a specific other, but nonetheless a part of the body of Christ through Whom all graces are mediated. Thus, inasmuch as the acceptor or decliner is in the body of Christ, the word of the specific other stands in for the will of the Wholly Other, if that makes much sense to anyone. If one is not supposed to be there, we can have faith that our petition "Thy will be done" will be answered, and thus that the hearts and minds of all concerned will be enlightened and that the aspirant will have the humility and obedience to accept his true destiny in this life. If a community judges that a postulant should not continue, this is a more excellent way of knowing that one is not called to that life (or at least to that community) than through endless introspection. As a melancholy type myself, I know quite well that introspection often confuses more questions than it resolves.

Lillabett, I didn't necessarily say that marriage should be discerned; I said the secular lay life, to which marriage is normative, should. That said, though, I do believe that marriage should be discerned. But as Nunsuch indicated, it's not a one-sided thing. A marriage requires a confirmation from another as well. It is probably reasonable to conclude that one who accepts the secular lay life will be married at some point, but that marriage must be discerned, not in general, but to a specific spouse. In the same way, entering religion is not something to be discerned in general, but with a specific order. We cannot ignore the profoundly social aspect of everything about the life of a Christian; it is never merely a personal matter.

Freedomreigns, you are very correct in being on guard against ambitious and selfish motivations among aspirants. I, too, would think that these are quite rare, considering the nature of the life, but any sense of ambition among an aspirant should, we pray, easily be construed by a director or formator as a lack of a "right intention," one of the criteria for vocation.

Rose, it probably wouldn't surprise you then if I were to say that I hear almost exclusively the Traditional Latin Mass and tend to be very skeptical of anything which seems out of step with our faith's long tradition. I certain have an ear to the Cistercian's point of view on this: a desire to enter religion for the right reasons cannot but be construed as an action of grace. That said, however, desires often cannot become realities, and spiritual direction is of the utmost necessity lest it be seen whether the desire is founded, or if God will have the aspirant elsewhere. Such decisions are too grave to be made alone.

That last statement is all the more relevant considering what you said regarding the crisis of the family. I doubt that there's anything that can stunt anyone so much as a faithless, loveless family. No priest, no school can repair that affective wound. It sets many wandering in the world, egoistic defenses very strong, fearful of letting one's guard down to another, yet always yearning for the intimacy of which they feel deprived. I know this because I was that man. The fears of someone in that setting are perfectly understandable, yet his inability to trust another enough to give that gift of self we all are called to serves to increase that isolation. Some marry, thinking that the companionship of marriage might overcome this, but often find themselves worse off for it. I can't say that I know how to resolve this except in the case that it must reach the point where one must take that leap of faith. The fickle will finally has to come to a decision to make a home, figuratively speaking, and to stop wandering. I call this group "the reluctant pilgrims."

As yet, I've been working mostly with young catechumens, so it's hard to say yet. My ideas are very well received at this point, but let's see where they stand a year or two after entering the Church.

[arfink]

Formation can absolutely imperil the souls of men and women who are not prepared for it.

 

I agree with you about marriage being something to be discerned rather than presumed. As someone who has never been particularly "whizz!bang!" about getting married the prevailing idea that marriage is the basic vocation that everybody naturally has annoys me to say the least. 

 

It can also imperil the soul if it's being done poorly, as I have seen happen many times when an organization is clearly trying to fill the roster and then weed people out by process of elimination. Those who stay get expert attention, and those who go can be simply discarded. This is very dangerous, and I've seen it happen far too many times of late.

[NotreDame]

It can also imperil the soul if it's being done poorly, as I have seen happen many times when an organization is clearly trying to fill the roster and then weed people out by process of elimination. Those who stay get expert attention, and those who go can be simply discarded. This is very dangerous, and I've seen it happen far too many times of late.

 

Or when groups try to fill the roster, then keep everybody in as long as they can.  Giving marginal attention to those there and zero attention to those that leave.   I've seen many leave environments like that and few leave with a stable Catholic faith.
 

[AnneLine]

Bardegalois, I appreciate you are trying to foster vocations and help people to be sure they at least consider a vocation.  In one sense that is a good thing; sometimes people don't ever get asked or encouraged to even consider priesthood or religious life.

 

However, even with all the determination and good will in the world, if someone does NOT have the gift of a vocation to priesthood or religious life, they will NOT be able to persevere in those vocations.  It takes the gift from God.  And God gives that to some of us, but not ALL of us.  Pushing people toward religious life is NOT a good idea.

 

In fact, pushing people in a direction GOD may not want them to go in is dangerous.  I've seen what ARFink and NotreDame have seen... and I also have seen MANY, MANY people who have lost their faith in God and in the Church because of the experiences that they have vicariously seen in their friends, children, parents, etc.  

 

Often all it takes is one or two bad experiences to really sour someone on God and His Church.

 

I'll also add to what NotreDame said above, it's not just that some seminaries and convents and monasteries dump their rejects by the side of the road like so much refuse (and yes, there ARE communities, vocation directors and seminaries that do that to people... I know... I've cleaned up more than my share of them as a counselor.....) ... but even when the community or seminary is helpful to someone who leaves, it can be financially,, emotionally and spiritually devastating.   Especially for the women, most have NOTHING to fall back on should they come out.  Friends and families sometimes will help--but often will not.  Jobs and insurance and housing has been left... and it is very hard if not impossible to find it again.  Many come out (especially from seminaries) with CRUSHING debt.  

When I went in in the 1980's, I left a stable job, an apartment, a wardrobe, and the entire furnishings for an apartment that was rent controlled.  I entered, and six months later it was clear to the community and to me that God wanted something different from me.  And I am very happy, very clear that God has and does and will use me in a way that I could never have dreamed as a lay woman who fosters vocations into and out of religious life for dozens of people. I have NO regrets.  BUT mine is NOT a typical experience.  Many people NEVER get their relationship with God back in order after a bad experience.

 

AND.. I came out with my airplane fare to my home city, the clothes I wore into the convent, a suitcase full of postulant nightgowns and underclothing that couldn't be worn with secular clothing... no apartment (and had my apartment been available it would have gone up 2x in rent... )and a check for $650... my 'dowry'.   I had no job, no clothes, had lost my insurance and it was danged tough to go job hunting and answer the 'and where have you been for the last six months?' question.  

 

And I was very clear that I was following God's will.  Not everyone is so lucky.... nor to have a family to whom they could return.   The first year was HORRIBLE.  Don't kid yourself.  NO ONE should just 'try it'... and everyone needs to go in realizing that, while no one intends it to happen, God may ask you to come out again.  So have a plan B.  Really.

 

Having said that, if God is calling, GO FOR IT.  Just be sensible and listen to what He wants, not what YOU want.

 

 

 

Bardegalois, the other problem is what happens if people go in who do not have a vocation... but stay anyway.   THAT has its own horrible result.  I have seen some VERY miserable priests and religious who really shouldn't have been encouraged to go into religious life/priestly life.   I'm not talking about pedophiles or other kinds of people with criminal problems -- I'm talking about just plain MISERABLE people who should NOT be doing the kinds of work they are doing and who do more harm than good representing the Church.   My suspicion is that a lot of those horrible stories about mean and cruel religious and priests are more due to these kinds of people being encouraged to STAY when they should have been not encouraged in this life in the first place.  And they stay sometimes because they really have no where else to go.

 

And then there is the question of the lay vocation.  And yes, there really IS a vocation to being a lay person.  God gifts them with  WONDERFUL gifts and abilities and would be very useful to God in the secular world... but if they aren't encouraged to USE those gifts as lay persons, because they are trying to be something they should NOT be, they spin their wheels trying and trying and trying to enter religious life or a seminary.... and end up not using their gifts to serve the Lord in an effective way.  

 

Makes me sad... makes them miserable... and really doesn't honor what God's gifts were intended to do.... bring people to Christ.  Themselves and others.

 

So... sure, encourage people to look at the possibility of a vocation, and do what you can to support those who discern them... but none of us should push people.  

Edited April 2, 2014 by AnneLine

[Pia Jesu]

This is similar to what I was thinking the other day.  Every now and then in the past I would try to imagine the woman of my dreams, or think about whatever girl I had a crush on at the time.  A thought of the girl I most recently liked crossed my mind yesterday, but instead of dwelling on that I immediately turned to thoughts of the Blessed Virgin Mary...what if she were, as +Fulton Sheen said, "the woman I love"?  (I really ought to go ahead with Montfort's Total Consecration.  I've got sidetracked during the 33-day preparation before so I've never made to the consecration day!)

 

But yes, that "why not" is irresistible for me.  Why not give my life utterly over to Jesus through the evangelical counsels?  Why not throw myself into His arms, into his Mother's arms, through this way?  And if the way is ultimately barred for me for some reason, then I will not regret the attempt.

 

Maybe I'm just an overly optimistic neophyte, but I'm really entranced about the possibility of religious life for me.  It's so much more radical than anything I encountered in my Protestant upbringing.  What I really want (or at least, what I really want to want :pray:) is closeness to the Eucharistic Jesus.  Time stops when I see Him.  If He will give me the grace to make it through discernment, through profession of final vows, through the life afterwards...well I will be grateful.  :amen:

 

For those of us who have made a few too many poor decisions, choices, etc. along the way, Chrysostom, your idealism is refreshing.  Thank you for sharing.  And although Bardegaulois' comment that "our desires often cannot become realities," we (and I'm speaking of the world in general) are sorely in need of the revitalized spirituality, a life of simplicity, a balance between contemplation and activity, and yes, even the asceticism you speak of.  I don't see you as a "overly optimistic neophyte" at all--but someone who understands that the world--and human experience--

have meaning beyond surface appearances.  Keep searching and praying!

 

As W.M. Urban writes in Beyond Realism and Idealism, "At first, as a youth, we smile over its silliness; somewhat further on the way we find [idealism] interesting, clever, and forgivable...With maturity we are likely to find it meaningful, to annoy ourselves and others with it...But later, and with more earnest reflection and more extensive knowledge of human life and its interests, it acquires a strength which is difficult to overcome."

 

[bardegaulois]

Lilllabettt, Arfink, and Notredame, I must say that I agree that we have a big problem with certain societies that just want to fill their ranks. I don't want to be uncharitable by mentioning certain names, but a certain society of priests that was quite the rave a decade ago but whose star has precipitously fallen since then was quite notorious for this. I remember the pushiness and salesmanship of their letters and phone calls when I was younger did not sit well with me, and further research into this society and its character confirmed my misgivings. Particularly as there are so many people who have nothing to fall back upon if they leave, this can be a problem, as can the candidate who stays out of fear of ruin upon leaving.

 

And it seems that you have quite a bit of experience with this, AnneLine. Would that we had more like you who were able to counsel and advise those who leave monasteries or seminaries and try to get their life and secular career together again. This is indeed a danger of which someone using the process of elimination that I am generally promoting here should be aware. Indeed, I know that I was only marginally aware of this before this conversation. So do allow me to ask a question: what would you suggest could be done to improve this state of affairs?

 

I should add that there are some, likely many, who can tell very readily that they are called to the lay life. A strong desire for marriage, an inclination for a profession with which the religious or clerical states are incompatible (like the military, business, or public service), and the necessity of caring for family are among these. These we can reasonably conclude are called to the lay life. For many, though, there is not a strong sentiment for these, nor is there a strong inclination toward the clerical or religious states. Much of the time this is due to ignorance due to their responsibilities and obligations. Then there are many who've lived for a time as laymen and find it somehow lacking. A lack of marriage, a sense of frustration with one's career, the sentiment that the duty to order the secular world is somehow beyond them are taken together signs that someone ought to reconsider. I'm thinking a lot about liberal-arts grads, who find a closed market, a worldly ethos rather hostile to people of their temperament, and a general sense of degradation in feeling like they have to "sell themselves" to employers for work they generally resent. It's likely in this quarter, the wanderers and reluctant pilgrims, that my words seem to have the most effect. They, too, find themselves spinning their wheels in this world.

 

Thanks all for your replies.

[NotreDame]

AnneLine, that was possibly one of the sanest and - despite it's length - most succinct posts I've ever read on VS.

 

BG, as I mentioned, I have sympathized with your POV from the beginning and I don't think any of us are really arguing, so I appreciate your thoughtful replies.