Islam: Religion Of Peace?

[4588686]

Whether or not everyone is in agreement with your thesis, I'm legitimately curious about the "points" the author has come up with. We know the Old Testament has a lot of violence in it, but what is it that causes "fundamental" Muslims, compared to "fundamental" Christians, engage in widespread terrorism today? Society? Culture? Politics? I mean what's the third variable?

 

 

I disagree with the premiss that fundamentalist Muslims are engaged in violence and terrorism while fundamentalist Christians don't.  One of my closest friends from school survived the Srebrenica massacre in Bosnia.  Most of her family did not and today on the memorial erected the the victims of the masacare around listed about ten members of her family.  As the killing was ending the commander of the Serb forces orders that a Greek flag be hoisted to honor the Greek volunteers who had come to fight with their 'Orthodox brothers' against the 'Turks.'  The Serbian Nationalism that was the ideological undergirding of the slaughter was saturated in religious language and religious iconography.  

 

Nor is that fusion of nationalism and religious fanaticism foreign to America

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/08/erik_prince_and_the_last_crusa

 

" Now two former employees are accussing Erik Prince (pictured), Blackwater's boss, of wanting to start a religious crusade against Muslims. In an affidavit lodged with a court in Virginia, one of the witnesses said that Mr Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe." The statement continues"

 

Whether the accusations against Eric Prince are true or not I personally have spoken with and know individuals who wanted to get deployed to iraq and Afghanistan because they wanted to kill Muslims and saw themselves as modern day crusaders.  

 

I think that to Christians it's pretty obvious that these sentiments are anomalous.  Most Christians don't have any desire to kill or harm anybody.  The causes of it vary.  I would say that on at a macro level most of the causes are ultimately economic and political.  Serbian Orthodox nationalism revived with the collapse of the Yugoslav economy and Christian nationalism in the US has revamped with the disaperance of jobs that provide a respectable living for young men.  Obviously any individual story is more complicated than that.  I would say that terrorism involving Muslims has roughly the same causes.  That story gets more complicated since a great deal of terrorism in the Muslim world currently comes from countries that have been occupied or were, until relatively recently, colonies or have authoritarian governments.  

[4588686]

 

 

Now, eventually, the Christian countries did do some converting at the point of a sword - but that didn't happen until after the spread of Islam. Maybe they figured they had to fight fire with fire - adopt the methods of the opposition, that kind of thing. St. Ferdinand used the sword to drive Muslims out of Spain, but only after the Muslims had invaded it and stayed for 500 or 600 years. Muslim invasions of Europe were repulsed by Martin of Tours in France, by others at the Battle of Lepanto (the victory there was attributed to the rosary), by St. Stanislaus, and a number of others. 

 

 

Ok.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica#cite_note-Ehler65-1

[4588686]

 If you follow the news at all, you've heard of Muslims locking Christians inside churches in Nigeria and slitting the throats of all the believers - invariably mostly women and children. But I don't read of Christians locking women & children in mosques and slitting their throats.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/02/21/anti-muslim-backlash-turns-deadly-in-nigeria/

 Christian mobs rampaged through a southern Nigerian city Tuesday, burning mosques and killing several people in an outbreak of anti-Muslim violence that followed deadly protests against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad over the weekend.

Residents and witnesses in the southern, predominantly Christian city of Onitsha said several Muslims with origins in the north were beaten to death by mobs which also burned two mosques there.

[4588686]

 The only instance of Christians attacking Muslims that I can think of in modern times was in Bosnia. 

 

 

That's a pretty flopping big caveat.  

"Christians never attack Muslims.  The one exception being the worst campaign of genocide in Europe since the Holocaust"

[NotreDame]

I disagree with the premiss that fundamentalist Muslims are engaged in violence and terrorism while fundamentalist Christians don't.  

 

Nor is that fusion of nationalism and religious fanaticism foreign to America

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/08/erik_prince_and_the_last_crusa

 

I don't know... the last decade's 18,000 terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam would make me hesitate before saying there isn't a connection between the religion and the murders, if only because the murderers say there's a connection.

 

And the fact that you have to draw on such obscure examples to make any comparisons to Christian behavior is a pretty good indicator that there really isn't any comparison. 

[NotreDame]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/02/21/anti-muslim-backlash-turns-deadly-in-nigeria/

 Christian mobs rampaged through a southern Nigerian city Tuesday, burning mosques and killing several people in an outbreak of anti-Muslim violence that followed deadly protests against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad over the weekend.

Residents and witnesses in the southern, predominantly Christian city of Onitsha said several Muslims with origins in the north were beaten to death by mobs which also burned two mosques there.

 

Well, eventually Christians will fight back.  From the same article:

 

The violence appeared to be in reprisal for anti-Christian violence Saturday in the mostly Muslim northern city of Maiduguri in which thousands of Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches, killing at least 18 people.

 

[4588686]

Well, eventually Christians will fight back.  From the same article:

 

The violence appeared to be in reprisal for anti-Christian violence Saturday in the mostly Muslim northern city of Maiduguri in which thousands of Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches, killing at least 18 people.

 

 

Attacking civilians for actions committed by other people in another city is not 'fighting back'

[Selah]

1. The National Liberation Front of Tripura, is a Christian insurgent nationalist group

2. Warriors of Christ the King, a now defunt facist guerilla Christion group

3. The Catholic Reaction Force in Ireland that went after Protestants 

4. God's Army in Burma, another guerilla group

5. The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda and Sudan 

 

It's funny how some some Christians like to pretend this never happens. 

Edited March 23, 2014 by Selah

[4588686]

I don't know... the last decade's 18,000 terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam would make me hesitate before saying there isn't a connection between the religion and the murders, if only because the murderers say there's a connection.

 

And the fact that you have to draw on such obscure examples to make any comparisons to Christian behavior is a pretty good indicator that there really isn't any comparison. 

 

 

Right, so two quick things.

 

First of all you're accepting the completely unsourced claim the the article as a fact.  Beatitude has already pointed out why that figure should and the accompanying claims, for anyone with a basic capacity for critical thinking, should set off some warning bells.  

 

Second, the two examples that I chose were the Bosnian genocide and Christian nationalism within the military complex of the world's military super-power which has launched two major ground wars in Muslim nations and engaged in extensive military actions across the Muslim world.  I'm a little confused as to how either of those are 'obscure'

[4588686]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

BANGUI, Central African Republic – Tens of thousands of Muslims are fleeing to neighboring countries by plane and truck as Christian militias stage brutal attacks, shattering the social fabric of this war-ravaged nation.

In towns and villages as well as here in the capital, Christian vigilantes wielding machetes have killed scores of Muslims, who are a minority here, and burned and looted their houses and mosques in recent days, according to witnesses, aid agencies and peacekeepers. Tens of thousands of Muslims have fled their homes.

[HisChildForever]

I disagree with the premiss that fundamentalist Muslims are engaged in violence and terrorism while fundamentalist Christians don't.  One of my closest friends from school survived the Srebrenica massacre in Bosnia.  Most of her family did not and today on the memorial erected the the victims of the masacare around listed about ten members of her family.  As the killing was ending the commander of the Serb forces orders that a Greek flag be hoisted to honor the Greek volunteers who had come to fight with their 'Orthodox brothers' against the 'Turks.'  The Serbian Nationalism that was the ideological undergirding of the slaughter was saturated in religious language and religious iconography.  

 

Nor is that fusion of nationalism and religious fanaticism foreign to America

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/08/erik_prince_and_the_last_crusa

 

" Now two former employees are accussing Erik Prince (pictured), Blackwater's boss, of wanting to start a religious crusade against Muslims. In an affidavit lodged with a court in Virginia, one of the witnesses said that Mr Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe." The statement continues"

 

Whether the accusations against Eric Prince are true or not I personally have spoken with and know individuals who wanted to get deployed to iraq and Afghanistan because they wanted to kill Muslims and saw themselves as modern day crusaders.  

 

I think that to Christians it's pretty obvious that these sentiments are anomalous.  Most Christians don't have any desire to kill or harm anybody.  The causes of it vary.  I would say that on at a macro level most of the causes are ultimately economic and political.  Serbian Orthodox nationalism revived with the collapse of the Yugoslav economy and Christian nationalism in the US has revamped with the disaperance of jobs that provide a respectable living for young men.  Obviously any individual story is more complicated than that.  I would say that terrorism involving Muslims has roughly the same causes.  That story gets more complicated since a great deal of terrorism in the Muslim world currently comes from countries that have been occupied or were, until relatively recently, colonies or have authoritarian governments.  

 

Thanks--I suck at politics like this so I'll have to reread your post again when I'm not as busy. Question, have you seen the MTV True Life "Resist the Power! Saudi Arabia"? It focuses on 3 young people focused on political and social/cultural reform. From what I remember they were happy in their faith, it was the government they challenged. You can find it online.

[HisChildForever]

I don't know... the last decade's 18,000 terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam would make me hesitate before saying there isn't a connection between the religion and the murders, if only because the murderers say there's a connection.

 

True, but to be fair anyone can commit an atrocity in the name of x, y, or z. Regardless I've come to believe or at least consider that there's something more besides religious ideology at play. Because from what I gather this ideology is primarily rooted in the Middle East. I've never heard, or gotten the impression, from American-born Muslims that violence is the way to go.

[NotreDame]

Right, so two quick things.

 

First of all you're accepting the completely unsourced claim the the article as a fact.  Beatitude has already pointed out why that figure should and the accompanying claims, for anyone with a basic capacity for critical thinking, should set off some warning bells.  

 

Second, the two examples that I chose were the Bosnian genocide and Christian nationalism within the military complex of the world's military super-power which has launched two major ground wars in Muslim nations and engaged in extensive military actions across the Muslim world.  I'm a little confused as to how either of those are 'obscure'

 

The number is hard to verify... Even wikipedia admits that it's list is incomplete.  Frankly, documenting the worldwide attacks by muslims is no easy chore.   If I had to wager, I'd bet the 18,000 number is high.  Perhaps you have an objective source for the number?

 

What we do know is that the number is high, it's global, that there has of late been a severity in the attacks on christians in muslim countries in Africa nd the middle-east and that these are explicitly done in the name Allah.

 

Your examples of Christian fundamentalism were of a few obscure people possibly doing what they did in order to kill muslims, not of the wars themselves, so yes, your examples were obscure.

[NotreDame]

Attacking civilians for actions committed by other people in another city is not 'fighting back'

 

If christians in the other city were murdered by muslim civilian mobs then attacking muslims and trying to run them off before they do the same in your city is indeed a form of self-defense, albeit an unfortunate one.

 

Africans aren't stupid.  They see what has happened to Christians in other African countries as muslim groups took over the government.  They see what is happening in the northern regions of their countries.  When civilized government doesn't protect them expect civilians and vigilantes to take matters into their own hands and to do so poorly. 
 

[4588686]

If christians in the other city were murdered by muslim civilian mobs then attacking muslims and trying to run them off before they do the same in your city is indeed a form of self-defense, albeit an unfortunate one.

 

 

 

That is probably the most morally offensive, and stupid, thing that I've heard in a while.