Islam: Religion Of Peace?

[4588686]

Wow, more personal attacks... I'm shocked, SHOCKED!!!

 

 

Yeah.  I was unnecessarily um, let's say 'jerkish' in that comment.  I stand by the rest of it though.  I've had a central point.  It's the only I'm interested in addressing because nothing I say about any of the empirical or smaller claims will not depend on recognizing that basic misattribution on the part of the articles author.  I'm happy to address the specific claims but only after discussing the conceptual basis of the thesis.  

[NotreDame]

Yeah.  I was unnecessarily um, let's say 'jerkish' in that comment. 

Yet totally in character.

[Luigi]

(that's a backhanded insult because, like many people, I find you annoying)

 

THE perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. 

 

And after the out-of-hand insults, and after the evasions, you turn to being hiply funny to take the focus off your completely annoying know-it-all vapidity. 

 

 

 

JK :hehe2:

[4588686]

THE perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. 

 

And after the out-of-hand insults, and after the evasions, you turn to being hiply funny to take the focus off your completely annoying know-it-all vapidity. 

 

 

 

JK :hehe2:

 

 

How have I been in any way evasive?

[4588686]

Yet totally in character.

 

 

Alrighty then.  Fuck you. 

[4588686]

Olive branch: rejected

[Luigi]

I don't know that all members of a religion, including those alive today, can be held responsible for what the founders of the religion did long years ago. 

 

But I will say that you can know the tree by its fruits. And all that violence (involving Mohammed, his favorite daughter, his favorite grandsons, his favorite wife, and all the early caliphs) stands in pretty stark contrast to Jesus being unjust crucified, eleven out of the twelve apostles being crucified, and a few centuries of martyrs. The early Christians never took up arms, never invaded other countries, and never converted people at the point of a sword. 

 

Neither did the main missionaries - Cyril & Methodius, Patrick, Augustine of Canterbury, Boniface, and a lot of others went unarmed into their mission lands. And when the Christian countries of Europe were invaded by the Goths & Company, the Goths & Company eventually converted to Christianity, but it wasn't at the point of a sword - they were the victors, not the victims. 

 

Now, eventually, the Christian countries did do some converting at the point of a sword - but that didn't happen until after the spread of Islam. Maybe they figured they had to fight fire with fire - adopt the methods of the opposition, that kind of thing. St. Ferdinand used the sword to drive Muslims out of Spain, but only after the Muslims had invaded it and stayed for 500 or 600 years. Muslim invasions of Europe were repulsed by Martin of Tours in France, by others at the Battle of Lepanto (the victory there was attributed to the rosary), by St. Stanislaus, and a number of others. 

 

Christianity has plenty to be ashamed of in its history, but most of that emerges after the religion had become so thoroughly ingrained in the cultures of the countries, at which point the politicians perverted it to their own use, as it were.

 

 

As for modern times, I think the strongest - and truest - accusation in the original post is the first one - 18.000 attacks in the last ten years. And I don't care if they're labeled terrorist attacks or not. If you follow the news at all, you've heard of Muslims locking Christians inside churches in Nigeria and slitting the throats of all the believers - invariably mostly women and children. But I don't read of Christians locking women & children in mosques and slitting their throats. You read about nuns in Damascus being attacked in their convent, but you don't read about nuns attacking Muslims at prayer. You read about Muslims attacking and burning Coptic churches in Egypt, but you don't read about Coptic mobs attacking Egyptian mosques. You read about Muslims mobs attacking churches in Indonesia, but you don't read about Christian mobs attacking Muslim mosques. You read about Muslims gangs terrorizing villages in the Philippines, but you don't read about Christian mobs terrorizing Muslim villages. You read about Muslims beheading a Jewish reporter in Pakistan - they even filmed that one and put it on the Internet. They also cut his body into ten pieces, although they didn't film or post that part. You read about two attacks on the Twin Towers - when the first one didn't work, they came back for seconds. You read about the Boston Marathon bombing. 

 

Whether the attackers should be labelled terrorists or not is the least significant detail of these events. The recurring pattern here is that the attacks are by Muslims on non-Muslims, whereas you don't read about non-Muslims attacking Muslims. The traditionally Christian countries have accepted any number of Muslim immigrants, whereas the traditionally Muslim countries accept only limited numbers of non-Muslims - usually for the economic development they can provide. Muslims are allowed to build mosques in non-Muslim countries, but Christians are not allowed to build churches in Muslim countries (that may hold true to varying degrees, I guess; Saudi Arabia is the strictest in that regard, but I should think it's pretty much the same in many if not all Muslim countries). The only instance of Christians attacking Muslims that I can think of in modern times was in Bosnia. 

 

So I find at least Item 1 the original post convincing. Not because it's ignorant or racist, but because I read it in the news. 

[NotreDame]

idgi

It means I like mine spicy and, though I may be wrong, you come across whiter than the pillsbury doughboy, so no thanks.

 

Olive branch: rejected

There's no ill-will requiring an olive branch.  I just want you to cut out the personal attacks and aspersions. 

[Kateri89]

Ok Hasan and NotreDame just hug and make up :buddies:

 

I'm certain that this post doesn't have much value to this thread but I'm tired and I don't care.  One of my oldest, closest friends is a devout Muslim and a very kind person.  I know her family as well and find them also to be very nice people.  I don't know enough about the religion itself to come to any conclusions but I'd prefer simply to assess the character of the individual rather than make an overall judgment.  I don't like it when people make broad assertions about Christians or even Catholics particularly so why would I want to do that to someone else?

[Luigi]

...I'd prefer simply to assess the character of the individual rather than make an overall judgment.  I don't like it when people make broad assertions about Christians or even Catholics particularly so why would I want to do that to someone else?

I agree with you. I worked with a devout Muslim for a long time - he was a good guy in a lot of ways. One day he came into the production area saying, "I want to kill some Jews..." I knew he was joking, but I can't imagine devout Christians in the post-Holocaust US making that same joke. 

 

On the other hand, we often make broad assertions because they keep us alive, Ms. Why-Can't-We-All-Just-Get-Along. Recognizing patterns, knowing where to expect the next outbreak of violence, or the next type of violence (will it be car bombs, improvised explosive devices, suicide bombers, tennis shoe bombers, underpants bombers) can help us prepare to defend ourselves. 

 

I'm sure there were French-Dutch-Austrians-Hungarians in Germany who knew and personally liked individual Nazis, and those Nazis may not even have been directly involved in any war-machine activities. But that didn't stop their countries from being invaded. 

[Kateri89]

I agree with you. I worked with a devout Muslim for a long time - he was a good guy in a lot of ways. One day he came into the production area saying, "I want to kill some Jews..." I knew he was joking, but I can't imagine devout Christians in the post-Holocaust US making that same joke. 

 

On the other hand, we often make broad assertions because they keep us alive, Ms. Why-Can't-We-All-Just-Get-Along. Recognizing patterns, knowing where to expect the next outbreak of violence, or the next type of violence (will it be car bombs, improvised explosive devices, suicide bombers, tennis shoe bombers, underpants bombers) can help us prepare to defend ourselves. 

 

I'm sure there were French-Dutch-Austrians-Hungarians in Germany who knew and personally liked individual Nazis, and those Nazis may not even have been directly involved in any war-machine activities. But that didn't stop their countries from being invaded. 

 

I'm pretty sure I never said that.  I'm not implying that we should act unwisely.  For instance, I wouldn't go to a country with a Muslim majority where there would be a real threat of violence against me as a Christian.  I'm just saying that I prefer to get to know people as individuals before making any rash judgments.

[Maggyie]

Islam, a religion with a billion adherents of a dizzying variety of sects and beliefs, is really not comparable to the Third Reich in any way. But congrats on winning that award they give to whoever first drags the Nazis into an internet thread.

[HisChildForever]

Yeah.  I was unnecessarily um, let's say 'jerkish' in that comment.  I stand by the rest of it though.  I've had a central point.  It's the only I'm interested in addressing because nothing I say about any of the empirical or smaller claims will not depend on recognizing that basic misattribution on the part of the articles author.  I'm happy to address the specific claims but only after discussing the conceptual basis of the thesis.  

 

Whether or not everyone is in agreement with your thesis, I'm legitimately curious about the "points" the author has come up with. We know the Old Testament has a lot of violence in it, but what is it that causes "fundamental" Muslims, compared to "fundamental" Christians, engage in widespread terrorism today? Society? Culture? Politics? I mean what's the third variable?

[4588686]

I agree with you. I worked with a devout Muslim for a long time - he was a good guy in a lot of ways. One day he came into the production area saying, "I want to kill some Jews..." I knew he was joking, but I can't imagine devout Christians in the post-Holocaust US making that same joke. 

 

 

 

Interesting.  I guess you've never been to FishEaters.  

[Selah]

Interesting.  I guess you've never been to FishEaters.  

 

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