Islam: Religion Of Peace?

[Socrates]

I'm racist against pc leftist idiocy, whatever its color, ethnicity, or national origin.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Socrates

[4588686]

I'm racist against pc leftist idiocy, whatever its color, ethnicity, or national origin.

 

 

No.  You're just simple minded.

[MIKolbe]

BOOM

[Socrates]

No.  You're just simple minded.

 

Racist.

[Selah]

No.  You're just simple minded.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUQM6oNxyV4

[CatholicsAreKewl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3-P9roK_Es

 

^ highly recommended.

[Didacus]

I find that hard to believe.

 

 

There currently isn't a central agreed upon figure-head in Islam to apologize for all Muslims.

 

 

I find it interesting that your argument is very similar to the ones I hear from Muslims defending Muhammad's wars. You bring up good points but keep in mind that facts and events can be easily twisted to justify immoral acts.

 

 

Using God to rally people to kill is wrong, regardless of the reasoning. They could have (and did) use other incentives to recruit soldiers. The Crusades weren't as much about religion as we like to pretend they were.

 

 

 

 

You bring up a good point. There are Muslims who proudly identify with those conquerors, but many don't. As I brought up above, Islam doesn't have a central figure-head like the Pope to apologize for these missteps.

 

 

 

Clerics should stay away from politics and war whenever possible, or else you get flooped up poo like children clearing out minefields. The moral boundaries start to fade away when we make God a cheerleader for our wars.

 

 

 

 

I know Christians who've said remarks pretty close to that.  We're all a lot less different than you might think.
 

 

The section of the clip you highlighted refers to one mosque in Pakistan. This isn't the norm. A stronger point might be that people around the world are afraid to attack Islam publicly. Muslims argue that those who might retaliate violently make up a very small minority. However, regardless of the numbers, there are still enough nuts to scare people away from doing it.

 

 

 

The Iraq war was supported by many clerics and I rarely hear churches rally against drone strikes.

I agree with you that Islam has serious problems that need to be addressed, like the Qur'ans potential for violent interpretation. Muftis have historically adopted the most convenient understanding of these scriptures for their circumstances. Despite this, It's a bit disingenuous to ignore the peaceful interpretations that a healthy majority prefer. 

 

I don't pretend that the crusades were about religion in the least; I outright admit they were political.  And agreed; using God to promote killing is wrong and using God to promote the crusades was not a just approach.  However, I consider it the lesser evil, as nothing else at that point in time would have called Europe to join forces and battle against an enemy which clearly needed to be opposed, and against whom they had a right to defend themselves.

 

That islam has no center head to defend themselves is a weak argument.  Countless religious leaders within ilsam encourage violence against non-mulsims of all sorts and have no intent on apologizing on atrocities committed yesterday or last week, much less atrocities committed by islam centuries ago.

 

People in the US are afraid to criticize islam publicly because they are afraid people will call them racist, ignorant, stupid and all those nasty little names (just like many in this thread did to me and continue to do so, and will continue to do so).  people in Pakistan do not speak out in their own communities out of fear of being killed.  Huge difference there buddy.  And that is far from uncommon in nations like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia... in fact, that is far closer to the norm in Islamic controlled nations, and in some cases IT IS EVEN THE LAW. 

[Didacus]

as someone who believes in jesus christ, my harshest criticisms are for those who claim to follow jesus and then fail at doing that. and worse, point to their neighbours as if that will save them. we are all sinners. there is not ONE of us who is righteous. who are you to throw stones at others, sinner?

 

My point precisely... so stick with that.  Seems to suit you fine.

 

 

the theology of holy war was a development from the just war theory that was already there from christianity in its early days, as developed by people like st. augustine.

 

Sorry - BS on that; holy war is far removed from just war.  Where in the just war theology does it say that God orders his people to wage war?  Please enlighten the ignorant sinful worm that I am and please feel free to do by throwing as many derogatory remarks towards my person as you possibly can since that seems to suit so well.

 

 

 

war in the name of god has a long long history before islam, noticeably in jewish holy war theology. no crusade historian believes that christian holy war theology came from islam (i read a lot of literature on the crusades,  it's one of my recurring interests). we can trace the geneology of christian holy war back to native christian roots, and it has no islamic antecedents, as far as we know. pope gregory vii was an influential developer of holy war theology for example.

 

Same as above - please point to a single war waged by Christians because 'God told them to' prior to the crusades.

 

 

 

turn the other cheek. what is that, empty words? WHO is jesus? is he someone we merely accept sometimes when it's convenient and safe for us to accept him, and other times not? better to die than to kill.

 

The lesser evil; if you could prevent the death of 10 innocents but had to kill a murderer in order to do so; would you kill the murderer (who has killed many times before) or allow the innocent to be killed?  It is never desirable to kill anyone, but I for one would defend my family and kill a stranger if I needed  in doing so.  Feel free to judge me and send me to hell at your leisure - thank God you are not my judge.

 

 

  don't get all righteous on me, because no one has a leg to stand on. western christians have not repented, it's all good to  say sorry (and how often do western christians do that...not very often!) but when it comes down to it, they still live on the proceeds of the dispossession, murder and colonial injustice of their forebears and in the present. i wonder how many first worlders think about where their clothes come from and then heard about the disaster in bangladesh and then went right on buying their cheap clothes. i wonder how many think about the rampant capitalist injustices that they are wreaking upon the world. but hey who cares about our wrongs when our neighbour is worse, let me cast the first stone! omnia ad gloriam dei maiorem!

 

How righteous are you then?  where do you buy your clothes?

 

 

the trouble with you is that when i look at a muslim person, i see a muslim person. i don't see the representative of a millenia long war. i don't see a civilisational enemy to me. i don't see an enemy of christ,i see a fellow human being, i see a person who believes in god like me and whose religion is an integral part of who they are, not someone who is incidentally good because of their religion. i would much rather have a muslim person who is good because they follow muhammad than a christian who is bad because they follow christ.

 

I have more respect for a muslim who believes in Allah than an atheist who believes in nothing.  I do not seek to apply to individuals any shortcomings as such.  I simply point out to obvious that islam teaches hatred and violence to non-mulslims.  I did not suggest to harm any person who follows islam nor even make them suffer any disadvantage; I simply point out to some pretty darn obvious contents of islam; like the koranic passage ordering muslims to lie in order to protect and spread islam.  I am not saying that all ilsamists lie; I am simply pointing out the direct command of the koran ordering them to lie to all non-muslims.  There are also rules about muslims not being allowed to befriend non-muslims; this is in the Koran and is direct about the requirements.  I do have some muslims whom I consider my friends by the way, some for close to 20 years already.  Doesn't change the fact their 'holy book' tells them not to be friends with me.

 

 

since i see christ in them, i have a duty to treat and think of that person like i would treat and think of christ. and also how christ would think of them.

 

 

what did the martyrs do? like sheep to the slaughter, lead by our shepherd.

 

I agree that I am far from such holiness.  However I would point out that none of the martyrs wished to be martyred.  Being a martyr does not imply being stupid and allowing others to kill us freely or to openly cause us or our loved ones to suffer humiliation and violence as the koran commands them.

 

 

 

no we don't justify our violent actions with christianity any longer, we don't believe in christ enough to do that anymore, what we do instead is call ourselves christians and then go right on killing and stealing while neatly separating the two. how many american christians cheered when the death of bin laden was announced.

 

Sooo... if I read this right, if we believed in Christ more we would justify our violent actions?  Am I missing something here?

If you hate Christianity that much, why would you bother being a Christian then?  I for one did not cheer when Bin Laden was killed.  I was content that some justice was done, but I do not rejoice, and refuse to rejoice upon the death of anyone.  I would (and have, especially to my children) frown upon anyone doing such a thing.

 

Interesting that you would admit that Christians no longer use their religion to justify violence, can you say the same for islam?  Honestly?  Or would you like to renounce your statement and s*** on Christianity some more and claim we use religion to commit violence just as much as islamists do (which in this modern day and age is simply not true, but go ahead, s*** on Christianity... seems to suit you well).

 

 

 

and i was talking about the bible. how many christians would condemn the bible for supporting the genocide of the canaanites?

 

I know of none.. do you?

 

[Didacus]

I think it is very unfortunate that so many people will excuse or turn a blind eye to islam's violence in current times on the simple account of Christianity having short comings in the past.

 

To say <Do not criticise islam because Christians are bad.> is an indefensible and illogical position to hold.

[Didacus]

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Nicholas_Stix_86/Domestic_Terrorism_The_Nation_of_Islam_and_the_Zeb_6926_printer6926.shtml

 

Has anyone heard of the Zebra killings?

 

 

From 1970-1974, the Nation of Islam earned the title of the bloodiest domestic terrorist group in American history, as it murdered as many as 270 whites in California alone.

 

 

[4588686]

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Nicholas_Stix_86/Domestic_Terrorism_The_Nation_of_Islam_and_the_Zeb_6926_printer6926.shtml

 

Has anyone heard of the Zebra killings?

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_murders

 

"Saleem "Sammy" Erekat, a 53-year-old Jordanian Arab Muslim, was bound and shot execution-style in the restroom of his grocery store on November 25."

[4588686]

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Nicholas_Stix_86/Domestic_Terrorism_The_Nation_of_Islam_and_the_Zeb_6926_printer6926.shtml

 

Has anyone heard of the Zebra killings?

 

 

I'd just like to draw people's attention to the author of the hysterical, racially tinged article that Didacus linked.  His name is Nicholas Stix and he has prolific affiliations with various organizations like the National Policy Institute

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Policy_Institute

 

And VDARE

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vdare

 

 

A quick google search for some of Mr. Stix's publications will reveal a number of disturbing articles apparently written by a sad, disturbed, and deeply racist man.  

 

I wonder what other racist conspiracy theorists Didacus draws inspiration from?

[Ice_nine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_murders

 

"Saleem "Sammy" Erekat, a 53-year-old Jordanian Arab Muslim, was bound and shot execution-style in the restroom of his grocery store on November 25."

 

BUT Hasan, that's just ONE arab. Can't you READ?! TWO-HUNDRED AND SEVENTY WHITES were KILLED by BLACKS in California ALONE.

[4588686]

BUT Hasan, that's just ONE arab. Can't you READ?! TWO-HUNDRED AND SEVENTY WHITES were KILLED by BLACKS in California ALONE.

 

 

AHHHH!!!!!

[AugustineA]

Anecdotally, in the past my experience in the Muslim community confirms what Didacus said about turning a blind eye and accepting "jihadi" violence. At one point in my life I began studying Islam (along with the Bahai faith), hung out with muslims from university, studied Quran and hadith, and was interested in studying Maliki fiqh and how it intersected with Christian eschatology. I was very inspired by liberal muslim intellectuals like Hamza Yusuf teaching down at Zaytuna college. It was a sort of downward spiral until Hamza Yusuf quoted St. Paul once and I realized that my intellectual curiosity had morphed into something different, and I ran to confession and had a good long talk with the priest. :)

 

That being said.. much like the courtiers and emperors were the bastion of arianism and didn't represent Christendom as a whole, we can point to tons of great muslim intellectuals, leaders, and liberal converts (yusuf estes etc.) who who preach about love and inclusion, but it didn't match what I saw daily. These liberal leaders lived in Western democracies or Saudi Arabia. We would go to their lectures when they visited and talk about how great their ideas were, and how noble the ummah is, how persecuted muslims are, and how merciful they are.

 

And still, every day someone would bring up examples of violence.. akhis (brothers) from London going to Syria, getting in a fight with someone, and killing them. Bombings in Eurasia, whatever.. And no one ever said anything.. Usually two or three of the weird ones would talk about the caliphate and fighting the kufar, and the rest would say nothing or Allah knows best or, "oh they're persecuted". Eventually I couldn't help but think what is wrong with these people.. Clearly there were cases where they were right, but 8 out of 10 times I was really disgusted by their tacit support of violence.

Edited April 26, 2014 by AugustineA